Am I the only one who is really confused?

pinky wrote: I wouldn't bee too happy if I were a Wasps/Sale/Quins fan. One of them is likely to finish seventh. The Challenge Cup spot is gone for the PRO12 so that should make Connacht//Edinburgh/Dragons/Cardiff less competitive and unlikely to challenge. The seventh placed Prem side would then only qualify if Exeter win, and they look like they will probably be more focused on qualifying for the Premiership semis or even getting a home semi.
At this stage it's starting to shape up like the first playoff round will be Connacht v Challenge Cup winner.

I'm glad to see that they are already laying the groundwork for next season's confusion with this statement:

To facilitate the Rugby World Cup, there will be no play-offs for the 2016/17 Champions Cup with the 20th place in the tournament going to the winner of the 2016 Challenge Cup if not already qualified.

What the hell happens if the winner of the 2016 Challenge Cup is already qualified???

is this not how it should be though?

qualification criteria.
1. Winner of champions cup (if not already qualified. )
2. Winner of challenge cup. ( If not already qualified)
3. playoff between 7th place teams.
simples.

ah ok got it now thanks.

If Newcastle were to win the Challenge Cup this year, they would go into the play-offs with the 7th placed Pro 12 team (assuming the Italians stay bottom) and the 7th placed French team.

They would play the pro 12 team first (toss of a coin for home advantage) and the winner of that would play the French team at home. The winner qualifies for next years Champion's Cup.

If a Pro 12 team (or an English team finishing in the top 6 of their league) win the Challenge cup, the 7th placed English team will go into the play-offs with the 7th placed Pro 12 team (assuming the Italians stay bottom) and the 7th placed French team.

just catching up on this now, maybe someone could agree\disagree with me, so if I understand it correctly if for instance Newcastle win the Challenge cup this year and I take it they are way down in the premiership then there will be no route to get into the champions cup through a pro12\englishclub 7th place play-off since newcastle will take the last spot?

so that means a french club possibly loses out also?

I wouldn't bee too happy if I were a Wasps/Sale/Quins fan. One of them is likely to finish seventh. The Challenge Cup spot is gone for the PRO12 so that should make Connacht//Edinburgh/Dragons/Cardiff less competitive and unlikely to challenge. The seventh placed Prem side would then only qualify if Exeter win, and they look like they will probably be more focused on qualifying for the Premiership semis or even getting a home semi.
At this stage it's starting to shape up like the first playoff round will be Connacht v Challenge Cup winner.

I'm glad to see that they are already laying the groundwork for next season's confusion with this statement:

To facilitate the Rugby World Cup, there will be no play-offs for the 2016/17 Champions Cup with the 20th place in the tournament going to the winner of the 2016 Challenge Cup if not already qualified.

What the hell happens if the winner of the 2016 Challenge Cup is already qualified???

Laughable stuff really.

I wouldn't worry about Dragons or Cardiff. They are extremely unlikely to catch us and even if they do they won't get Top 7. Although it'd be handy if they'd stay interested in the league from our viewpoint.

Edinburgh will have been targeting Saturday's game v Scarlets anyway.

I thought it unlikely any of the Pro 12 teams would win the competition but the first thing that should be nailed down for every competition is what has to be done to qualify for it so teams can plan accordingly.

Less of a distraction and/or more of an incentive for the Dragons, Blues and Edinburgh, all of whom have to play the Scarlets in the league?

(and all of whom could catch and overtake Connacht yet)

pinky wrote: That's pretty much it salmson. I wouldn't rule out some form of legal action no matter what way it ends up.

We'll just have to finish 7th AND win the Challenge Cup then :whistle:

salmson wrote: So to be clear:

For qualification to Champions Cup playoffs for the Pro 12 and Top 14, the original / incorrect / wrongly translated rule from the start of the season will apply i.e. Challenge Cup win does not get you a playoff spot if you do not qualify via the league.

But for the Aviva Premiership teams, the new / corrected / properly translated rule announced mid-season will apply i.e. Challenge Cup win trumps league position.

The tinfoil hat explanation:
Sales for the finals are poor and with English interest in the main competition odds on to be extinguished in the next 10 days, ERC-nua want some English interest in the finals weekend.

A more likely explanation:
One of the three teams in the race for 7th (most likely Scarlets who are in pole position for 7th) have (rightly) threatened legal proceedings in the case where another Pro12 team (most likely Blues or Dragons, which makes me suspect a Scarlets hand; the Welsh teams in the senior competition will be in the box seat for getting players on central contracts) are promoted to the playoffs over their heads by a rule introduced mid-season.

That's pretty much it salmson. I wouldn't rule out some form of legal action no matter what way it ends up.

Evil_g wrote:

Evil_g wrote: But as of today, and to the best of my knowledge since the start of the season, the ECC website sets out the rules for qualification for next seasons competition as follows:

Qualification for 2015/16
European Rugby Champions Cup

Clubs qualify for the 2015/16 European Rugby Champions Cup in the following ways :

• PRO12: The seven highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league. The seven qualifiers must include at least one club from each of Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales.

• Top 14: The six highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league.

• Aviva Premiership: The six highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league.

For the 2014/15 season, the 20th qualifier was determined by a play-off over two legs between the clubs ranked seventh in the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14.

For subsequent seasons, the seventh-ranked club from the Top 14, the seventh-ranked club from the Aviva Premiership, and the eighth-ranked club from the PRO12 (or the highest-ranked club not already qualified automatically) will compete in a play-off series for the 20th place in the Champions Cup as follows:

Match 1: Aviva Premiership (seventh-ranked club) v PRO12 (eighth-ranked club or highest ranked club not already qualified)
Home advantage to be decided by toss of coin

Match 2: winner of Match 1 v Top 14 (seventh-ranked club)
Winner of Match 1 will have home advantage

www.epcrugby.com/europeanrugbychampionsc...lification/index.php


There is no mention of qualification through the Challenge Cup, meaning that whatever is being proposed now amounts to a change in the rules mid season.

Indeed, it's not even clear what is being proposed now. Is it intended that a Pro12 winner of the Challenge Cup would take the Pro12 place in the three team play off?

Or will the 7th placed team in the league (assuming Italians stay bottom) go into a four way play off with 1 English, 1 French and the winner of the Challenge Cup?

They've changed the website:

For the 2014/15 season, the 20th qualifier was determined by a play-off over two legs between the clubs ranked seventh in the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14.

For subsequent seasons, the play-offs for the 20th qualifier will include the following clubs:

The seventh-ranked club from the Top 14, or the winner of the 2014/15 Challenge Cup if from the Top 14 and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.

The seventh-ranked club from the Aviva Premiership, or the winner of the 2014/15 Challenge Cup if from the Aviva Premiership and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.

The eighth-ranked club from the PRO12, or the winner of the 2014/15 Challenge Cup if from the PRO12 and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.

The Champions Cup play-offs will take place as follows:

Match 1: Aviva Premiership (seventh-ranked club or Challenge Cup winner from the Aviva Premiership if not already qualified) v PRO12 (eighth-ranked club or Challenge Cup winner from the PRO12 if not already qualified)
Home advantage to be decided by toss of coin

Match 2: winner of Match 1 v Top 14 (seventh-ranked club or Challenge Cup winner from the Top 14 if not already qualified)
Winner of Match 1 will have home advantage

So there ya go. I'd describe it as Orwellian, but that would imply some degree of competence.

If Connacht finish 7th and any of the Dragons, Blues, or Edinburgh finish below us but win the Challenge Cup, we don't get a play off.

Sorry to keep quoting myself, but they've changed it again.

For the 2015/16 season, the play-offs for the 20th qualifier will include the following clubs:

The seventh-ranked club from the Top 14.

The seventh-ranked club from the Aviva Premiership, or the winner of the 2014/15 Challenge Cup if from the Aviva Premiership and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.

The highest-ranked club from the PRO12 if not already qualified for the Champions Cup.

www.epcrugby.com/europeanrugbychampionsc...lification/index.php



So we're back to the way it was at the start of the season.

No place in the play-offs for the winners of the Challenge Cup.

So to be clear:

For qualification to Champions Cup playoffs for the Pro 12 and Top 14, the original / incorrect / wrongly translated rule from the start of the season will apply i.e. Challenge Cup win does not get you a playoff spot if you do not qualify via the league.

But for the Aviva Premiership teams, the new / corrected / properly translated rule announced mid-season will apply i.e. Challenge Cup win trumps league position.

The tinfoil hat explanation:
Sales for the finals are poor and with English interest in the main competition odds on to be extinguished in the next 10 days, ERC-nua want some English interest in the finals weekend.

A more likely explanation:
One of the three teams in the race for 7th (most likely Scarlets who are in pole position for 7th) have (rightly) threatened legal proceedings in the case where another Pro12 team (most likely Blues or Dragons, which makes me suspect a Scarlets hand; the Welsh teams in the senior competition will be in the box seat for getting players on central contracts) are promoted to the playoffs over their heads by a rule introduced mid-season.

Con. Sonar. Crazy Ivan!

PRO12 Challenge Cup winner will NOT now qualify for the Champions Cup ...

If an Aviva Premiership club wins the 2015 Challenge Cup and is not already qualified for next season's Champions Cup, that club will take the place in the play-offs of the seventh-ranked club in the Aviva Premiership. The same principle will apply for future seasons to the Top 14 and to the Guinness PRO12 with the second of the PRO12 spots going to the winner of the Challenge Cup if applicable.

As only one Guinness PRO12 club will feature in this season's play-offs, the principle will not apply.

www.epcrugby.com/europeanrugbychampionsc...479.php#.VRQMCY4-cnB

Here's the original announcement of the playoff format from back in April last year:
www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/european-...ns-cup-30175182.html
This includes the Challenge Cup winners

From 2015 season, if the previous season's European Rugby Challenge Cup winner has not already qualified through its finishing position in its league, it will participate in the play-off by taking a place given to its league.

The revised playoff format agreed in September is here:
www.irishrugby.ie/european/32495.php

At this point all the focus is on moving from a 4-team playoff to just 3, it doesn't mention the Challenge Cup winner either way, so it remained ambiguous whether they were included or not, but when they finally stated the complete qualification rules on the website (minus the Challenge Cup winners) most people assumed that that was that and they were excluded.
A pretty massive communication feck up.
I wonder if the clubs involved knew the correct rules all along or were they in the dark as much as us.

Pool 1 Final Standings
London Irish 24
Cardiff Blues 24
Grenoble 12
Rovigo 1

Results
Rovigo 6-34 London Irish
Grenoble 3-28 Cardiff Blues

London Irish and Cardiff Blues both sealed their places in the last 8 of the Challenge Cup after securing bonus point victories on their trips to Italy and France respectively. London Irish had to work hard for their 5 pointer with their lead standing at just 10-6 at half time. With the home side determined to regain some pride following their concession of over 100 points away to Cardiff in Round 5 the game remained close until winger James Short scored the premiership sides' 2nd try of the day. 3 tries in quick succession in the final quarter ensured an all important home quarter final for London Irish. Star man for the visitors was former Connacht winger/ London Irish flanker Ofisa Treviranus who scored a hat-trick of tries.

Cardiff Blues had to content themselves with an away quarter final despite finishing as best runner up of all the pools. Leading just 7-3 at half time, the Blues moved clear with two penalty tries in the 2nd half before Josh Navidi crossed in the final couple of minutes to secure the bonus point.

Pool 2 Final Standings
Exeter 25
Connacht 20
Bayonne 9
La Rochelle 4

Results
Exeter 45-3 Bayonne
La Rochelle 20-30 Connacht

Exeter wrapped up Pool 2 and a home quarter final spot with a 6 try 45-3 demolition of Bayonne. Bayonne had caught Exeter at the death in the opening round but after leading by just 11-0 at half time and 14-3 early in the 2nd half the Chiefs cut loose to win by 42 points. The margin of victory helped propel Exeter above Dragons into 2nd seeding for the quarter final.

Connacht left it late to seal their place in the last 8 but late tries from Niyi Adeolokun and Matt Healy helped Connacht turn around a 9 point half time deficit to emerge 10 point victors and in the process secure the all important 5 try bonus.

Pool 3 Final Standings
Dragons 25
Newcastle 21
Stade Francais 15
Bucharest 1

Results
Dragons 30-19 Stade Francais
Bucharest 10-52 Newcastle

Dragons secured a home quarter final by completing a double over Stade Francais at Rodney Parade. Dragons raced into a 22-7 half and despite two 2nd half tries from Stade, Tom Prydie's 15 points helped the home side to their 5th victory from 6.

Newcastle bounced back from their 1st half capitulation at home to Dragons in Round 5 to run out easy 52-10 winners over Bucharest. 2 tries from Rob Vickers, Juan Socino and Alex Tait eased the Premiership into the quarter final.

Pool 4 Final Standings
Edinburgh 22
Lyon 18
Bordeaux-Begles 16
London Welsh 1

Results:
Edinburgh 38-20 Bordeaux-Begles
London Welsh 12-17 Lyon

Edinburgh booked their place in the last 8 courtesy of a bonus point win over Bordeaux-Begles at Murrayfield. In a game both sides needed to win if they hoped to make the quarter finals, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne continued his good form scoring 2 tries in a 28 point haul. Leading 14-6 at half time, the home side added 3 tries in the 2nd half to run out easy winners. However, the home side were left ruing their defeat in Lyon the previous week which cost them a home quarter final.

Lyon completed their campaign with a narrow win at London Welsh. Following the results earlier in the weekend Lyon's hopes of progression were over heading into this match but they ensured they finished 2nd in the group by inflicting more misery on the hapless home side. Leading 17-0 with 3 tries in the bag with almost 20 minutes to go, Lyon looked set for an easy bonus point victory but London Welsh at least ensured they finished the campaign with something to show for their efforts with two late tries earning them a losing bonus point.

Pool 5 Final Standings
Gloucester 29
Oyonnax 16
Zebre 8
Brive 2

Results:
Brive 20-31 Gloucester
Oyonnax 20-3 Zebre

Gloucester remain the only unbeaten side in the challenge cup as they picked up their 5th bonus point win of the group away at Brive. Flanker Matt Kvesic scored two tries as the Premiership side continued their stroll through the pool with an 11 point victory. Former European Cup winners Brive ended their campaign with just two bonus points to show for their efforts.

Oyonnax ended their campaign with a 4th win from 6 games to secure 2nd spot in the pool. The Top 14 side missed out on the quarter finals partly due to their failure to secure the all important 4th try in their doubles over Zebre and Brive (they scored 3 tries in all 4 games)

Quarter Final Lineup

Following the completion of the group stage of the Challenge Cup the quarter final line-up is as follows:
Gloucester v Connacht
Exeter Chiefs v Newcastle Falcons
Newport Gwent Dragons v Cardiff Blues
London Irish v Edinburgh

Borders no.2 wrote: Lets be honest, one of the English teams will win it anyway barring some big surprises. Set up for a Gloucester/Exeter v London Irish final I think.

I would agree that one of Exeter/Gloucester will be in the final, but London Irish have to get past Edinburgh and probably Cardiff before the final, that's a big ask. Personally I'd go for an Exeter v Edinburgh final.

If I could choose the final, then Connacht v London Irish....... Would be a good weekend away that !