its_phil wrote: No they weren't. Here is Paul McNaughton last week saying the rule existed. The only rumor is saying it was changed today.
www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-...nt-delayed-1.2071239

Actually we're all right (and wrong):

That Naughton quote in the Times (and elsewhere) is the new rule.

The "old" rule Evil_g quotes has been on the EPCR website all year.

When Simon Thomas (Welsh rugby writer) contacted the EPCR for comment they explained the differential between the originally published rule and the actual/new one as problems with translation. Presumably the translators struggled to understand what the organisers were saying as their heads were so far up their arses, though this really is dog-ate-it territory.

Andy McGeady put a screen print of the "old" rules on Twitter (embedded here: balls.ie/rugby/challenge-cup-winner-champions-cup-playoff/ ).

P.S. It's not just Bruce Wray's lackeys who are making it up as they go along. Just checked out the Pro 12 competition riles page...

3.7. The Guinness PRO12 Final is provisionally scheduled to take place on the weekend of 29/30 May. Guinness PRO12 will determine the venue for the Guinness PRO12 Final however the Team that finished highest in the league stage competing in the Final will be able to propose a venue within its own Union's jurisdiction (which may include the team's own ground) to host the Guinness PRO12 Final, provided that the venue meets certain commercial criteria and has capacity for a minimum of 18,000 spectators.

Evil_g wrote:

its_phil wrote: Gonna have to say I am not wrong because I knew of this rule before Christmas and was explaining it to my non-rugby mates after the Leinster game. I read it somewhere but rather convienently I don't know what newspaper. Naughton also said it last week in the Irish Times.

I'm pretty sure you read a rumour. I read those rumours as well. The rules were changed today.

No they weren't. Here is Paul McNaughton last week saying the rule existed. The only rumor is saying it was changed today.
www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-...nt-delayed-1.2071239

McNaughton said boosting Challenge Cup prize money will be discussed at next month’s EPCR board meeting.
“There’s a feeling out there that the Challenge Cup has lost something and that’s something we have to address,” said McNaughton.
“Increasing prize money may be one of the ways we could seek to look at this.
“Actually though there is already reward for the Challenge Cup winners that many people haven’t realised.
“The winners of the Challenge Cup can still qualify for the Champions Cup play-offs if they haven’t already done so through league position.”

Check the date on that.

its_phil wrote: Gonna have to say I am not wrong because I knew of this rule before Christmas and was explaining it to my non-rugby mates after the Leinster game. I read it somewhere but rather convienently I don't know what newspaper. Naughton also said it last week in the Irish Times.

I'm pretty sure you read a rumour. I read those rumours as well. The rules were changed today.

salmson wrote:

its_phil wrote: It was on the table from the start of the season or when they changed the playoff process earlier on this season because I heard it a good while back and I think it has been discussed here. No conspiracy here.

You're wrong there I'm afraid. The announcement of the playoff format earlier in the season made no mention of the Challenge Cup winners, the French teams have clearly been working on the premise that there is no route, and indeed only last week the (interim) Chairman of the EPRC admitted there were problems with the Challenge Cup and stated that there would be a way into the top competition for the Challenge Cup winners "in the future".

This is the second time this season the rules have been changed. I'd put it down to incompetance and disorganisation rather than conspiracy. If I was a Scarlets fan I'd be very pissed off.

Gonna have to say I am not wrong because I knew of this rule before Christmas and was explaining it to my non-rugby mates after the Leinster game. I read it somewhere but rather convienently I don't know what newspaper. Naughton also said it last week in the Irish Times.

Decadence wrote: Absolutely farcical all round, if it's not automatic whats the point? First we were screwed out of 8 automatic pro 12 spots, then we had to play two playoffs while the French only have one and now this. How did these gobsh*tes ever take over?

I can see why the Pro12 jumped at the change from 2 qualifiers playing away games to 1 qualifier more likely to play at home. If you allow for a long term average of 25% away wins in European knockout rugby (might be worse than that actually), then the newer format increases the league's chances of having an 8th side in the top competition from about 16% to about 38%.

The change to include a Challenge Cup winner could devalue the league games (as indeed did the change from 2 sides in the qualifiers to 1) but doesn't change the league's odds of representation.

Mostly it sucks because in terms of organisation, sponsorship and governance the Northern Hemisphere club game seems to have gone backwards a couple of decades in a few months (I wouldn't single out the not-HEC here, Pro12 "event" final in Ravenhill, ffs?).

Lets be honest, one of the English teams will win it anyway barring some big surprises. Set up for a Gloucester/Exeter v London Irish final I think.

Imagine how pissed off we'd be if the under 12s had lost in Bayonne?

How do we treat the following games now?

March 28th - Away to Munster
April 4th - Away to Gloucester
April 11th - Home to Ulster

Evil_g wrote: So there ya go. I'd describe it as Orwellian, but that would imply some degree of competence.

Beautifully put, but how long til the next re-write?

Going back the years Northampton and Wasps both won the HEC while finishing 5th in their domestic league; Leicester and Bath won while finishing 6th. Brive won the second HEC while finishing 5th in one of two pools of the French top division (i.e. joint 9th overall).

These geniuses must sign their names with an X

Absolutely farcical all round, if it's not automatic whats the point? First we were screwed out of 8 automatic pro 12 spots, then we had to play two playoffs while the French only have one and now this. How did these gobsh*tes ever take over?

Evil_g wrote: But as of today, and to the best of my knowledge since the start of the season, the ECC website sets out the rules for qualification for next seasons competition as follows:

Qualification for 2015/16
European Rugby Champions Cup

Clubs qualify for the 2015/16 European Rugby Champions Cup in the following ways :

• PRO12: The seven highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league. The seven qualifiers must include at least one club from each of Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales.

• Top 14: The six highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league.

• Aviva Premiership: The six highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league.

For the 2014/15 season, the 20th qualifier was determined by a play-off over two legs between the clubs ranked seventh in the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14.

For subsequent seasons, the seventh-ranked club from the Top 14, the seventh-ranked club from the Aviva Premiership, and the eighth-ranked club from the PRO12 (or the highest-ranked club not already qualified automatically) will compete in a play-off series for the 20th place in the Champions Cup as follows:

Match 1: Aviva Premiership (seventh-ranked club) v PRO12 (eighth-ranked club or highest ranked club not already qualified)
Home advantage to be decided by toss of coin

Match 2: winner of Match 1 v Top 14 (seventh-ranked club)
Winner of Match 1 will have home advantage

www.epcrugby.com/europeanrugbychampionsc...lification/index.php


There is no mention of qualification through the Challenge Cup, meaning that whatever is being proposed now amounts to a change in the rules mid season.

Indeed, it's not even clear what is being proposed now. Is it intended that a Pro12 winner of the Challenge Cup would take the Pro12 place in the three team play off?

Or will the 7th placed team in the league (assuming Italians stay bottom) go into a four way play off with 1 English, 1 French and the winner of the Challenge Cup?

They've changed the website:

For the 2014/15 season, the 20th qualifier was determined by a play-off over two legs between the clubs ranked seventh in the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14.

For subsequent seasons, the play-offs for the 20th qualifier will include the following clubs:

The seventh-ranked club from the Top 14, or the winner of the 2014/15 Challenge Cup if from the Top 14 and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.

The seventh-ranked club from the Aviva Premiership, or the winner of the 2014/15 Challenge Cup if from the Aviva Premiership and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.

The eighth-ranked club from the PRO12, or the winner of the 2014/15 Challenge Cup if from the PRO12 and not already qualified for the Champions Cup.

The Champions Cup play-offs will take place as follows:

Match 1: Aviva Premiership (seventh-ranked club or Challenge Cup winner from the Aviva Premiership if not already qualified) v PRO12 (eighth-ranked club or Challenge Cup winner from the PRO12 if not already qualified)
Home advantage to be decided by toss of coin

Match 2: winner of Match 1 v Top 14 (seventh-ranked club or Challenge Cup winner from the Top 14 if not already qualified)
Winner of Match 1 will have home advantage

So there ya go. I'd describe it as Orwellian, but that would imply some degree of competence.

If Connacht finish 7th and any of the Dragons, Blues, or Edinburgh finish below us but win the Challenge Cup, we don't get a play off.

We could perhaps console ourselves by the fact that the bookies believe that a pro12 side winning is extremely unlikely.

This could in fact increase our chances of qualifying slightly. Gloucester, Newcastle and London Irish are currently 9th, 10th and 11th in the AP. If one of them were to win the CC, it is likely that they would displace a team higher than them in the play off.

ConnachtCows wrote: If we beat Gloucester, we'll be playing either Exeter or Newcastle in Galway

But as the rules stand (or at least did stand), if we finished 7th we'd be a coin toss away from two home games for qualification.

If nothing else the gate receipts would've gone to good use.

Screw it. Hell for leather in both competitions from here on and qualify by whatever means are available.

If we beat Gloucester, we'll be playing either Exeter or Newcastle in Galway

salmson wrote: If I was a Scarlets fan I'd be very pissed off.

The majority of them seem surprisingly level headed (they're a cocky bunch):

www.scarletfever.org/forum/really-need-t...opic40759_page2.html

Personally, I think Connacht might have most to lose as, much and all as I'd love it, I don't see us beating Gloucester, Newcastle and Exeter (in London), and Scarlet's are probably favourites for 6th spot in the league at this stage.

(Sorry for the defeatist attitude...please quote me back when we qualify on merit twice over)

its_phil wrote: It was on the table from the start of the season or when they changed the playoff process earlier on this season because I heard it a good while back and I think it has been discussed here. No conspiracy here.

You're wrong there I'm afraid. The announcement of the playoff format earlier in the season made no mention of the Challenge Cup winners, the French teams have clearly been working on the premise that there is no route, and indeed only last week the (interim) Chairman of the EPRC admitted there were problems with the Challenge Cup and stated that there would be a way into the top competition for the Challenge Cup winners "in the future".

This is the second time this season the rules have been changed. I'd put it down to incompetance and disorganisation rather than conspiracy. If I was a Scarlets fan I'd be very pissed off.

its_phil wrote: [

It was on the table from the start of the season or when they changed the playoff process earlier on this season because I heard it a good while back and I think it has been discussed here. No conspiracy here.

I was under impression that Challenge Cup had no bearing this season - but winners next year get into play-off for Champions Cup.. But ya, maybe you right..

But as of today, and to the best of my knowledge since the start of the season, the ECC website sets out the rules for qualification for next seasons competition as follows:

Qualification for 2015/16
European Rugby Champions Cup

Clubs qualify for the 2015/16 European Rugby Champions Cup in the following ways :

• PRO12: The seven highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league. The seven qualifiers must include at least one club from each of Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales.

• Top 14: The six highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league.

• Aviva Premiership: The six highest-ranked clubs based on their finishing positions in the league.

For the 2014/15 season, the 20th qualifier was determined by a play-off over two legs between the clubs ranked seventh in the Aviva Premiership and the Top 14.

For subsequent seasons, the seventh-ranked club from the Top 14, the seventh-ranked club from the Aviva Premiership, and the eighth-ranked club from the PRO12 (or the highest-ranked club not already qualified automatically) will compete in a play-off series for the 20th place in the Champions Cup as follows:

Match 1: Aviva Premiership (seventh-ranked club) v PRO12 (eighth-ranked club or highest ranked club not already qualified)
Home advantage to be decided by toss of coin

Match 2: winner of Match 1 v Top 14 (seventh-ranked club)
Winner of Match 1 will have home advantage

www.epcrugby.com/europeanrugbychampionsc...lification/index.php


There is no mention of qualification through the Challenge Cup, meaning that whatever is being proposed now amounts to a change in the rules mid season.

Indeed, it's not even clear what is being proposed now. Is it intended that a Pro12 winner of the Challenge Cup would take the Pro12 place in the three team play off?

Or will the 7th placed team in the league (assuming Italians stay bottom) go into a four way play off with 1 English, 1 French and the winner of the Challenge Cup?