Saracens V Connacht 18th January 13.35
- phatguerilla
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/never mind found a different angle of the incident.
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- The Outlaw
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fluffychickens wrote: So the players have lost their desire. Just going on human emotions how does carty feel about taking toh's position on the bench. Likewise how does toh feel. How does the rest of the team feel about this shenanigans. And lam is not to blame. All he had to do was pick a sensible squad in the first place with carty included. Nobody would have objected. Utterly stupid antics by coach reflected by utterly lame performance by team
All he needed today was 4/5 All Blacks and we might have had a chance! Its hilarious that the coach gets he blame when we were utterly outclassed.
I'm not saying he's blameless but we aren't good enough for the HEC and thats the reality. To me the only mistakes Lam made were not picking Carty and Leader. Couldn't have done worse.
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- fluffychickens
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That is such utter arse of a comment. We ran Saracens close first time out, we beat Toulouse at home. Now we got whipped. Are we suddenly shite. There is a damm good reason but your answer is not the reason
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- phatguerilla
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fluffychickens wrote: That is such utter arse of a comment. We ran Saracens close first time out, we beat Toulouse at home. Now we got whipped. Are we suddenly shite. There is a damm good reason but your answer is not the reason
Some differences between the two games:
home advantage
Saracens had their first choice centres today
Catching saracens out in Galway with a kicking game they didn't expect.
Playing into Saracens hands today with a kicking game they definitely expected, then that kicking game deteroriating.
No poolman to go after the high ball/cross field kicks.
White sin binning.
injury to at least three players plus Henshaw going off while actually being one of the few players who seemed to have some go forward momentum and was still managing to tackle.
Playing a sh on the wing, Leader at 13 and an injured healy for long periods of the second half.
Defense in galway was frantic at times as Ronaldson had his first hec start, but otherwise it was much more aggressive than today where the passive line allowed big ball carriers to run at speed.
Some of the differences in the two games. Not saying that should equate to a 60 point difference today but some obvious reasons why the two games were vastly different even with the same team as a whole.
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- fluffychickens
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Duffy supplied for kicking game that didn't happen, so otherwise useless
Dan cross field kicking done twice, seemed to miss the concept of what a cross-field kick means.
Poolman would have made no difference
White should have been red-carded
Henshaw and marmion only decent players
Paul as winger made no difference. Team wasn't functioning
Most important is there was no passion. Coach?
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- The Outlaw
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fluffychickens wrote: That is such utter arse of a comment. We ran Saracens close first time out, we beat Toulouse at home. Now we got whipped. Are we suddenly shite. There is a damm good reason but your answer is not the reason
Its not far off it. We still have too many players who wouldn't be mapped at the other three provinces.
Its no different to any other season so far. A couple of top performances against very good sides and a series of poor displays against average to poor sides.
Anyone can raise their game against a good team . Its consistently beating the teams around you that provides progress to the next level.
There are no signs we are progressing on that front. I'm not disappointed we were hammered today. I knew we would be. I'm disappointed in the basic skill execution failures.
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- Devils own
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fluffychickens wrote: I don't accept that viewpoint whatsoever. Met a buddy of mine some days back who is a professional player. He lives and breathes this stuff. He doesn't go out on a Saturday night. He gets a number of weeks off each year. So good for you in your pub in Kerry. The only work you had to do was train your eyes on a TV screen. If you want to be critical then please be constructively critical. All of us are hurting but your post does not help
Many of us play the game because we love it, we may give up some things so we can play better but professionals are a different story entirely, its their job!.
They are paid well out of supporters and others pockets to perform of course they shouldnt be out on the tear on a saturday night. Would you be acclaiming a surgeon from not being hung over while doing his job, most everybody has to make scarifies for their profession and most are far harder than giving up a night out.
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Its not far off it. We still have too many players who wouldn't be mapped at the other three provinces.
Thats not a viable way to analyze our team, if a large proportion of our team was indeed mappable onto other provinces then we would be serious european cup contenders.
The question should be is the team far better than a 60 point drubbing at the hands of saracens and if yes then what went wrong. I would say that yes we are far better than what we saw today with marmion, clarke, henshaw, white, JHW, Heenan and perhaps healy on form being very good quality players.
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- fluffychickens
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My point is that while the result may not have been a good result these guys work day in and day out to supply results. As a surgeon you are not in the public eye each week. These guys are in the public eye and open to critisism for every move they make
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- The Outlaw
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Devils own wrote:
Its not far off it. We still have too many players who wouldn't be mapped at the other three provinces.
Thats not a viable way to analyze our team, if a large proportion of our team was indeed mappable onto other provinces then we would be serious european cup contenders.
The question should be is the team far better than a 60 point drubbing at the hands of saracens and if yes then what went wrong. I would say that yes we are far better than what we saw today with marmion, clarke, henshaw, white, JHW, Heenan and perhaps healy on form being very good quality players.
I agree 60 points was an embarrasement. I wouldn't suggest otherwise.
However our team is fundamentally flawed and I think there is a reluctance of Connacht fans to accept this and a change in coaching structure won't alter that.
We don't have enough quality in the outhalf position and we don't have a pack of forwards that can stamp their mark against a pack like Saracens today.
I despaired at times watching some of the our forwards trying to carry ball today. We've some real talents in the backline but they never get the ball.
Likes of Marmion and Henshaw will not hang around with a province going nowhere.
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- Devils own
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fluffychickens wrote: My point is that while the result may not have been a good result these guys work day in and day out to supply results. As a surgeon you are not in the public eye each week. These guys are in the public eye and open to critisism for every move they make
Yes of course thats true but for example if a surgeon leaves an instrument inside you by accident you would be probably be furious and claim negligence maybe sue and ask he/she be struck off ruining a career. These are the different hazards that come with different jobs. Rugby players get plenty of other benefits from being in the public eye, being open to criticism yes is a downfall it comes with the job.
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The Outlaw wrote:
Devils own wrote:
Its not far off it. We still have too many players who wouldn't be mapped at the other three provinces.
Thats not a viable way to analyze our team, if a large proportion of our team was indeed mappable onto other provinces then we would be serious european cup contenders.
The question should be is the team far better than a 60 point drubbing at the hands of saracens and if yes then what went wrong. I would say that yes we are far better than what we saw today with marmion, clarke, henshaw, white, JHW, Heenan and perhaps healy on form being very good quality players.
I agree 60 points was an embarrasement. I wouldn't suggest otherwise.
However our team is fundamentally flawed and I think there is a reluctance of Connacht fans to accept this and a change in coaching structure won't alter that.
We don't have enough quality in the outhalf position and we don't have a pack of forwards that can stamp their mark against a pack like Saracens today.
I despaired at times watching some of the our forwards trying to carry ball today. We've some real talents in the backline but they never get the ball.
Likes of Marmion and Henshaw will not hang around with a province going nowhere.
I agree we are quite weak in the backrow and right now at outhalf both crucial areas. I also expected us to lose as im sure most did, in reality its the pauper versus the prince in terms of cash.
However what annoyed me was the manner of the defeat and the crazy inconsistency , lack of fundamentals, falling off tackles, guys not calling and colliding, indiscipline etc etc these are problems that can be addressed and should have been long before now. I dont think Connacht fans expect us to be turning over saracens away on a shoe string budget but i do think most of us want to see total professionalism take root.
Even if you are up against a better outfit you do the fundamentals well thats priority number 1, have passion and pride along with some mental strength and you make the other team work damn hard for every point.
What i saw today was very far from that. Im not calling for lams head as i think he did well bringing in heenan and clarke but one big win all season and stuck to the bottom of the table behind the Italians is pretty bad.
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- The Outlaw
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Devils own wrote:
The Outlaw wrote:
Devils own wrote:
Its not far off it. We still have too many players who wouldn't be mapped at the other three provinces.
Thats not a viable way to analyze our team, if a large proportion of our team was indeed mappable onto other provinces then we would be serious european cup contenders.
The question should be is the team far better than a 60 point drubbing at the hands of saracens and if yes then what went wrong. I would say that yes we are far better than what we saw today with marmion, clarke, henshaw, white, JHW, Heenan and perhaps healy on form being very good quality players.
I agree 60 points was an embarrasement. I wouldn't suggest otherwise.
However our team is fundamentally flawed and I think there is a reluctance of Connacht fans to accept this and a change in coaching structure won't alter that.
We don't have enough quality in the outhalf position and we don't have a pack of forwards that can stamp their mark against a pack like Saracens today.
I despaired at times watching some of the our forwards trying to carry ball today. We've some real talents in the backline but they never get the ball.
Likes of Marmion and Henshaw will not hang around with a province going nowhere.
I agree we are quite weak in the backrow and right now at outhalf both crucial areas. I also expected us to lose as im sure most did, in reality its the pauper versus the prince in terms of cash.
However what annoyed me was the manner of the defeat and the crazy inconsistency , lack of fundamentals, falling off tackles, guys not calling and colliding, indiscipline etc etc these are problems that can be addressed and should have been long before now. I dont think Connacht fans expect us to be turning over saracens away on a shoe string budget but i do think most of us want to see total professionalism take root.
Even if you are up against a better outfit you do the fundamentals well thats priority number 1, have passion and pride along with some mental strength and you make the other team work damn hard for every point.
What i saw today was very far from that. Im not calling for lams head as i think he did well bringing in heenan and clarke but one big win all season and stuck to the bottom of the table behind the Italians is pretty bad.
Its terrible. An awful season . I'd swap the toulouse win for half a dozen Rabo wins in a heartbeat
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- Droptheclaw
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Exactly that, Bob - I couldn't believe it. He made a wee
. Utter idiot. Having said that, the rest of the Sarries players were sound as a bell, I had a brief chat with Steven Borthwick and he was apologising for giving us such a hiding! Fair play to them for letting everyone on the pitch after, too, it was a good laugh chucking a ball around and generally having a bit of craic with Sarries fans.Sea_point wrote: If you really think that that language is appropriate regardless of the player or result yesterday, you are on the wrong forum
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RogueXV wrote: Think too much is being made about Lam's decision on Carty and the bench selection. A more likely reason was that Carty pick up a minor injury in practice and came good for the game.
I think the first try of the 2nd half is my reason for not agreeing with removing Lam. Healy, Connacht's pick of a poor lot, makes a good run, kick, then chase. He forces the man laterally across the field but no one else comes up with any conviction so the Saracens easily work the ball for a try. The players have to shoulder a lot of the blame. Is Lam faultless? No, but he shouldn't have to trying to coach desire or the basics to players at this level and he can only select players available to him.
Not sure what White was thinking, he will be cited. If his foot hit Barritt's face it was just a glancing blow, but it was completely unnecessary & will be view a reckless.
Indeed and calling for Lam's head on the basis of that result is pathetic and more embarrassing than the loss frankly. I have been at many way worse performance than yesterday's, many that didn't make TV.
The only thing that could have changed the result yesterday was Saracen's completely underestimating us, they didn't they played their strongest squad and had their analysis spot on. On paper looking at the two squads how many Connacht players were the equal of their opponent by even 80-90%? Maybe Heenan, Clarke, Marmion and Henshaw and that's about it out of both 23's. In the pack it was men and boys, when you were up close to the two packs and compared the size of the Vanipola's and James Johnson etc to our lads it was massive. Our biggest problem yesterday was that we generated absolutely no go forward at all simply because we could not match up physically and Sarries defence ensured that we could not generate and pace into our game to get as round them.
Selection was all wrong for me anyway, trying to match up to Sarries physically away from home was a fools errand. Picking Mul at eight ahead of Naoupu and then Parks at 10 made for slow, slow ball that made life supremely easy for Sarries defensively. Duffy's selection denied us any counterattacking threat and a target for our speedsters Healy and Carr to track. Would have preferred to have the more muscular option to Donaldson starting at ten. Do wish we had Fallon, McSharry and Poolman available though which would free up Henshaw to move back to his most effective position for us.... Fullback!
Fair dues to Sarries though, they were absolutely clinical...
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- Droptheclaw
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Apologies, SP - won't happen again.
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