From what I interpreted Gavin wasn't criticising Marmion at all what he said was it seemed that he had to play a system which negates from his natural game that makes him the excellent scrum half he is. And from watching the game it is when he is ready to pass the ball he still has to wait for the pod to set up before he passes makes him look slow. Where with Connacht he has the autonomy to make his own decision i.e. Go look for a runner box kick etc. Gavin also said Kearney should be dropped and said Tiernan should be given a shot ! Thought he came across really well!

I haven't heard this ATH clip where Gavin Duffy criticises Marmion but that's bollix. It's a scrum half's JOB to "ship the ball along". He came on, injected pace, his passing was excellent and he directed his forwards well. Is he as good as Murray? No, few are, but he was absolutely fine and if he plays like that again we'll have no issue from him.

The lineout could certainly be an issue but it's not true that there are only 2 targets. Both Stander and Heaslip are regular lineout receivers for club and in Heaslip's case he has also done it for Ireland a fair bit in the past. People say that bulky back rows like them are too heavy to lift but I'm not convinced myself, even at their heaviest they're still probably 5-10kg lighter than big tall locks who are the usual receivers so shouldn't be any more difficult for the lifters to get up. The issue is with how good their jumping is and whether the lineout caller is doing well enough to make it difficult for the opposition to read.

Siob wrote: Marmion's starting, hopefully that means no kicking to the English back 3.

Not sure how well the same back row will do, England have the more athletic forwards, I was hoping Peter O'Mahony would start for his bloody-mindedness.

Listened to Against the Head on Monday. Gavin Duffy pointed out that Marmion was very one-dimensional when introduced. It was simply ship the ball along. It was exactly what I thought of Marmions performance against Wales. I am in no way saying that this is how Marmion normally plays. It is anything but. But it seems Joe refuses to allow him his electric breaks. Joe seems obsessed with structure. Every player will play to a plan and every other player will know that plan so will be in a designated place to support that plan. Of course the problem with such a strategy is that its so easy to read. So once you physically match Ireland then that's the threat nullified. And then its just a matter of ripping through them when the opportunity arises to close the game out. I listened to EOS and Murray Kinsella on Monday, and Eddie was talking about the extra option POM adds in the lineout. With only two players to hit in the line (Ryan and Henderson) it doesn't take a genius to work out where the opposition has to compete. So I think Rory is going to have another challenging day come Saturday. And then Henshaw being used as a battering ram with all the talent he has is just another example of how things fit in Joe's structure. I wish Andrew Conway well, as an underage player he was probably the most exciting up and coming talent, but don't be surprised if he is an unused substitute. And of course that just identifies another Joe issue of having a team of 15 and not 23.

Marmion's starting, hopefully that means no kicking to the English back 3.

Not sure how well the same back row will do, England have the more athletic forwards, I was hoping Peter O'Mahony would start for his bloody-mindedness.

RoadRunnerR1 wrote: I don't know which part of your post scares me the most. The fact that you seem to be suggesting that it's OK to pick average players over genuinely talented in form players simply because they'll follow the rigid outdated boring ineffective game-plan that leads to almost certain defeat. Or the fact that you seem to believe that Rob Kearney can defend. I'm sure George north is just the latest in a long list of players like Baptiste Serin & Tiernan that'll get a chuckle out of that.

I didn't say I necessarily agreed that these three players offer defensive solidity. However, if you are to believe the media, the reason Tiernan, Andrew or Craig are not selected comes down to an underlying belief that they would not be defensively strong enough at test level. What I am saying is our back three are picked for defensive duties not attacking duties. If you discard the Italy result our back 5 have managed 1 try in three competitive tests. And I suggest that it will be 1 try in 4 competitive tests by the end of this weekend. And that reflects how Joe wishes Ireland to play. And that's not going to change by next weekend.

I don't know which part of your post scares me the most. The fact that you seem to be suggesting that it's OK to pick average players over genuinely talented in form players simply because they'll follow the rigid outdated boring ineffective game-plan that leads to almost certain defeat. Or the fact that you seem to believe that Rob Kearney can defend. I'm sure George north is just the latest in a long list of players like Baptiste Serin & Tiernan that'll get a chuckle out of that.

RoadRunnerR1 wrote: It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Zebo, Earls or Kearney could pick up an injury in training rendering any one or combination of them unavailable.

And should any one of the three you mentioned be unavailable how would that change an Irish game strategy. The folks you mention are irrelevant to Irelands gameplan. Are you suggesting that any one of these three will ever score a try, or have the ability to score a try in a significant rugby game. They are selected for their defensive qualities, nothing else. I certainly don't see any one of those three scoring a try against England

The fact that he won't make the final 23 makes his inclusion in the squad less understandable rather than not more so. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Zebo, Earls or Kearney could pick up an injury in training rendering any one or combination of them unavailable for selection for the England game. If this were to happen McFadden would then make the 23 or even start the game. What kind of message is it sending to players who've put in consistently impressive performances all season long when once again a player with no current form jumps a queue ahead of them. Given the importance of the England game for WC seeding I'd understand it if McFadden was a genuine world class player but he's never been anything more than a capable squad player at Leinster.

Mark Mostyn wrote:

ConnachtCows wrote: Fergus McFadden has been drafted into the Irish squad to replace Tommy Bowe.

And with that, I am giving up on this Irish team. So frustrating, and predictable.

Ah he's not going to get near the team, he's just there to train, I'd say Joe picked him because he knows the systems, no point in bringing in Byrne or Sweetnam for 4 days if they're going to be lost in training and nowhere near the match team anyway

The thing is though, he would undoubtedly have skipped the queue of TOH and Conway, and probably even Gilroy (we saw it with Bowe, people said he was just there to hold tackles bags and bring the new lads up to scratch then he was named as 23 v Scotland and Wales)
Thankfully it will be Payne into the 23- weather he is at 13 or 15 remains to be seen, but that will push either Ringrose or Kearney onto the bench

Mark Mostyn wrote:

ConnachtCows wrote: Fergus McFadden has been drafted into the Irish squad to replace Tommy Bowe.

And with that, I am giving up on this Irish team. So frustrating, and predictable.

Ah he's not going to get near the team, he's just there to train, I'd say Joe picked him because he knows the systems, no point in bringing in Byrne or Sweetnam for 4 days if they're going to be lost in training and nowhere near the match team anyway

We are not going to make wholesale changes against England. Maybe O'Mahoney might start. I can't see the likes of TOH, Gilroy or Conway being anyway near the team. Other than O'Mahoney I think the only other possible change is Payne at centre with Ringrose on the bench or the other way around. Maybe marmion if Murray is injured. That's about it. And while I may not love such a conservative philosophy I would totally understand it if these were the only changes made. The English game could be huge for our seeding in the 2019 world cup so it is not time for something new. The time for something new was against Scotland and Italy and that never really happened. You blood players gradually but Joe simply has failed to blood players at all. And this is his legacy from this 6 nations. Of all players ignoring Scannell is probably the most difficult to understand. Rory has really had a poor 6 nations but Joe refuses to solve the problem. It is much like Salmsons sheep analogy, we just beat our head against that plank again.

[quote="salmson" post=53439

Years ago my neighbour bought a load of mountain sheep for some reason. They jumped up on the wall with one bound to see what was happening if they heard a car, they turned up anywhere and everywhere. They were more like fluffy mountain goats, and they didn't last long.

One day I was shooing them out of the garden through the wood fence (two planks with a gap in between) when my then 2 year old son came running round the corner doing his best sheepdog impersonation and the blasted things tore off back to their field in a panic.

One of the sheep misjudged her leap and smacked into one of the planks instead of hopping between them. She decided the best thing to do was to back up a bit and run harder at the fence, pretty much knocking herself out. I suspect if she's still alive that sheep is coaching the Ireland attack.[/quote]

Am I the only one who has totally lost focus and can't read or absorb anything posted after this...

Sol_ie wrote: I'm sure better and wiser heads than me will weigh in: but might it be the case that a win over England will keep us steady in the IRB Rankings, and secure a better seed in the next WC?

This is pure back-of-envelope stuff but I'm >90% sure this is how it pans out.

Looking at the world rugby site, the rating gap is 4.84 points in England's favour (as the home side we get 3 extra points).

Going by the graphs on their ratings explanation page this means is England win we give them ~0.5 points, if it's a draw they give up about the same. If we win we get almost 1.5 points.

For wins by >15 mean the ranking points are multiplied by 1.5, so the most we stand to lose is about .75 of a point.

Scotland are a whopping 14.01 points ahead of Italy when you add the 3 points for home advantage. As the rating gap is >10 points they can beat Italy by a world record margin and get precisely 0 World ranking points, so they cannot overtake us.

Home advantage means France are 2.05 points ahead of Wales. So France get ~0.75 for a win, Wales get ~1.25 for a win, draw looks something like ~0.3 to Wales.

So if we lose & Wales win, they overtake us. I think the same happens if we get hosed and they draw, but it's hard to tell. www.worldrugby.org/rankings/explanation

That's the difference between being drawn against one of New Zealand, England, Australia or Wales; or one of Scotland, Wales, South Africa or France.


Or you could just look here: rawling.github.io/wr-calc/

Yeah pretty much. But no matter what happens in any game we can't drop lower than 5th in the world rankings.

Mark Mostyn wrote:

ConnachtCows wrote:

Mark Mostyn wrote:

ConnachtCows wrote: Fergus McFadden has been drafted into the Irish squad to replace Tommy Bowe.

And with that, I am giving up on this Irish team. So frustrating, and predictable.

Ah he's not going to get near the team, he's just there to train, I'd say Joe picked him because he knows the systems, no point in bringing in Byrne or Sweetnam for 4 days if they're going to be lost in training and nowhere near the match team anyway

Except those 4 days could be hugely beneficial to these young players. Let them get familiar with the systems. Let them bring some new energy to the squad. Let them show up the untouchables within the squad. Could be the kick up the arse a huge amount of the Irish players need.
McFadden will bring nothing.

If this was 2 weeks ago I'd be right with you, I just don't think it's possible for a young lad to come into the squad and pick up Joe's systems in a matter of days, and I'm sure the players and coaches would rather focus on getting prep right for England than helping a young lad get to know the systems. I was disappointed that the likes of Byrne didn't make the first squad but now isn't the time to bring them in.

In any case it's a marginal call and hardly worth giving up on your national team.

I don't mean to pick an argument with you it just really irritates me that when we win a couple of games the narrative from Irish fans (and to an extent the media) is that we are great and all the players are world class and that Joe is the best coach in the world and you can't say anything in any way negative about team Ireland. Then we lose a few games and all of a sudden we're rubbish, the players are useless, Joe hasn't a clue, etc etc. There's no in between at all

I'm with you 100% here, and appreciate you saying it. I consider this to be a grown up debate, and not an argument. I'm happy to listen to your opinion.

I can see where you are coming from completely.
I've personally kept my nose out of this thread for the best part of the last year, as I have been quite negative about the Irish team since the World Cup, and dont think here is the best place to vent.

Personally, I wish the Irish team would write off at least a year after each world cup, and bleed as many new young players as possible, and I dont mean for 5/10 minutes at the end of a big game, or in the Summer Internationals.

As I saw pointed out on Twitter (I think), even Leinster generally pick their team based on form, rather than past performances. The Irish team dont seem to do this.
Again, I can understand it to an extent, as Schmidt only has the players for a finite amount of time, and needs to keep Ireland competitive, but it just seems to me, that there are at least 5 or 6 players starting every week for Ireland, who have no fear of losing their place in the team.

Sorry, I'm rambling here, and need to get back to work. Feel free to argue back, and I'll try and give better examples

I'm sure better and wiser heads than me will weigh in: but might it be the case that a win over England will keep us steady in the IRB Rankings, and secure a better seed in the next WC?

I take your point but McFadden brings nothing positive to the squad and for what ever the reasons are right now Joe's system is not working. There need's to be a plan B, C ect. and a little more trust shown in the hugely talented players available to Schmidt that are constantly being ignored. Tiernan O'Halloran, Jacob Stockdale , Adam Byrne, Darren Sweetnam or Matt Healy & Adeolokun (on last years form, not this years) represent a positive future for Irish rugby and a chance to move away from the predictable "Constantly banging your head against brick walls" approach of this current team. This years Championship has gone now and the only thing left apart from a better finishing place on the table and an extra few quid is the chance to enhance our prospects for next years 6 nations & the 2019 WC. Doing the same thing time after time and expecting a different outcome is insanity. I don't think Schmidt is insane but it's time he stops living off his past international reputation (beating NZ once and a couple of 6N title's) and starts showing that the faith being shown in him by the IRFU and Irish Rugby fans to deliver a team capable of playing good rugby, genuinely competing to win tournaments and constantly develop the endless stream of high class talent in Ireland into world class players isn't misplaced.