having just seen the french selection to play ingerland this competition might not be over.
i give them a decent chance of winning even taking their recent record at twickers into account.
at least it looks like s rugby team again with clerc on wing bastaard and fofana in centre, trih duc and parra at halfback, domingo at LH and swarsecki back on bench. should be an interesting game.

ive also just seen that stevenson and cave have been held in camp and not released to ulster for fridsys game which indicsates that there must still be some doubt over ryan and bod!

3 of the 4 provinces will have niq 2nd rows starting next season which wont help any new coach in that regard.

fitzgerarald offers real attacking impact from bench when defences are tiring, so does reddin.
henderson, cronin and killer offer ball carrying impact and physicality. toner offers cronin a target he can hit out of touch and fitspatricks job is to lock the scrum if ross cant.

i dont see the problem but if the shit really hits the fan as you seem to want to legislate for perhaps reddin can cover thee wing and cronin play 7!

rossie wrote: if this annoys you re kidney then you really have a problem.

I dont think anyone would have been confident with toner and stevenson starting in the 2nd row with doc on the bench. thats assuming that you are suggesting that Ryan should have been left out altogether because of worries over his fitness. The concerns you raise over Doc are unjustified and apply equally to cullen who hasnt played at this level in a lifetime and is the same age profile(not to mention the points raised by seapoint). i think that the management went for the best pack available to them given the circumstances they found themselves in.
Fitzgerald is a choice thing. There isnt a huge amount between trimble, mcfadden or fitzgerald. Mcfadden is now considered a winger by schmidt and afaik hasnt played 12 all season. He definately wasnt picked there last saturday which is an indication of where kidney and schmidt see him atm. Trimble is out of favour in irish set up. remember he regularly starts ahead of gilroy at ulster so if he replaces anybody?! Fitzgerald has done very well to make the comeback he has made from the injury he had. There are a huge amount of leinster fans who believe he should have started this game.
As for cover, rog covers 10, PJ -12, earls/ fitz- 13, fitz- 11/14, earls/fitz -15.

My point about the second row subs was the possibility of ryan going off early with an injured back and doc becoming tired because I thought he had not had a lot of full games this season, I was wrong about the latter issue so that has allayed my fears somewhat. I know that due to injuries we are not flush with second row options but it would be nice to see in the next few years a genuine attempt to find more players like McCarthy or Henderson who are genuine options off the bench for both second and back row.

You said a few posts ago that fitz offers more than the others, now there is barely anything between them? Trimble has fallen out of favour with management and I personally would not be fighting for him as a bench option. Yes McFadden has only played wing this season but that does not mean he has forgotten how to play centre and I would be reasonably confident he has played centre more recently than the only just back from injury fitzgerald. The general point is our bench is fairly weak and contains some players who's form has dipped or are not fully trusted by management. Added to that rog only covers 10 and reddan only covers 9 which hampers our options hugely. I don't expect kidney to change the whole system at this stage, I merely noted that when it comes to the backs on the bench.

The reason this is such an issue for me is its clear from last week and many games previously that benches change matches for other teams but not for Ireland, or at least not in a positive way.

afaik the contingency plan if ryan failed a fitness test was toner to start and stevenson to bench. they are clearly happy with his fitness. doc will be fine. he isnt the ball carrier that poc or macca are but will make his tackles and do his lineout work as he always does. he will play 80 if necessary. they are only allowed 2 back five subs so imo he chose as well as cud be expected in the circumstances. both toner and louis are 3rd choice at best in their provinces so it was a toss of a coin.

Really happy with Fitzgerald his form this season has been phenomenal. As for McFadden he hasn't played 12 this season. He had a conversation with Schmidt at the start of the year and asked to be chosen in one position only as he was been shunted around a lot and chose wing cause he figured he'd get the most amount of gametime there. Think Jarvis should do the same thing next year with Lam and maybe focus on one position like 13 where we don't have many options and he could get gametime (I consider Poolman a winger these days).

My worries are placekicking, the new 6 for scotland is a nuisance and may upset our ball at breakdown and their pace in back 3 if they find space.

This is why I'm happy with DOC he's a good workhorse in this area and with Chris Henry missing I think he'll be putting in a huge effort there. POM & SOB are good but there not the groundhogs like Henry is. Toner also makes more sense with the likes of Richie Grey on the team. I for one am quite happy with the bench.

So hard to find any enthusiasm for this. The game is up for Kidney after the England performance. At least he hasn't gone with ROG at out half I suppose.

I have good time for Kidney, any man who has achieved as much as he has deserves respect but the game has moved on and left him 3 years behind. It is a team in transition and its not an easy job for anyone to walk into but we are slipping further and further into decline the longer Kidney is left in charge.

Whether we will beat Scotland or not I don't know. Maybe we'll win by a score. Unless France shock England on Saturday the game has little relevance.

if this annoys you re kidney then you really have a problem.

I dont think anyone would have been confident with toner and stevenson starting in the 2nd row with doc on the bench. thats assuming that you are suggesting that Ryan should have been left out altogether because of worries over his fitness. The concerns you raise over Doc are unjustified and apply equally to cullen who hasnt played at this level in a lifetime and is the same age profile(not to mention the points raised by seapoint). i think that the management went for the best pack available to them given the circumstances they found themselves in.
Fitzgerald is a choice thing. There isnt a huge amount between trimble, mcfadden or fitzgerald. Mcfadden is now considered a winger by schmidt and afaik hasnt played 12 all season. He definately wasnt picked there last saturday which is an indication of where kidney and schmidt see him atm. Trimble is out of favour in irish set up. remember he regularly starts ahead of gilroy at ulster so if he replaces anybody?! Fitzgerald has done very well to make the comeback he has made from the injury he had. There are a huge amount of leinster fans who believe he should have started this game.
As for cover, rog covers 10, PJ -12, earls/ fitz- 13, fitz- 11/14, earls/fitz -15.

People need to get over their Kidney issues and just support the team. You will all get what you want in the summer and then will have 5/6 months of confusion before jumping on the bandwagon of critisising the new coach whoever the unfortunate man is. This is a team in transition burdened by injuries. Just look at the caps earned section on the team sheet. I still expect us to be good enough to win in Murrayfield in spite of that. Our scrum should be stronger, lineout solid and there is enough pace in backline to do damage.
My worries are placekicking, the new 6 for scotland is a nuisance and may upset our ball at breakdown and their pace in back 3 if they find space.

sea_point wrote: Try this here site, usually up to date...

www.itsrugby.co.uk/playersearch.html

Wouldn't be sure about Cullen, his legs are shot now and he's a bit of a penalty magnet plus as Leinster captain he's peed off many's a ref doing a Leicester (in the ref's ear from minute one)...

Lol cheers for that, that showed me, doc has played about 200 minutes more than cullen, that puts that concern to bed at least which is good.

To rossie I'm not saying Toner is the answer but equally its hard to consider him third choice at Leinster, especially as Schmidt's rotation policy tends not to favour one player for any length of time.

As for picking fitz for his attack Trimble has by far the best record at all levels of those three and especially for Ireland but also has played far more minutes in each instance. Does that mean he's the best bench option? I fancy McFadden as the best bench option purely because he has shown an ability to fill in solidly from 11-14, whereas Trimble struggles when played on the left wing and has not been used in the centre in a long time, and Fitz is just back from injury. Cover for full back is of least concern whereas cover for 12 and 13 is imo of most concern, especially as we have a specialist 10 on the bench.

I do have problems with kidney I won't pretend otherwise, I'm just annoyed that he's actually getting praised for picking a 15 that picks itself especially considering injury, while his bench remains as iffy as it has always been. A well picked bench changes games but Kidney's weakens the team.

phatguerilla wrote: Well in fairness to you I accept second row is a difficult area to cover at the minute but I would have preferred two players like henderson who can cover both second and back row in a pinch, although I realise that such a player is scarce, mclaughlin has done it but is injured I think this week, and marshall is a good bit off international level. Or perhaps continue using doc off the bench and start someone younger who's perhaps used to playing 80 minutes, ie Toner. But deccie probably doesn't trust him, and with some justification.

Alternatively Cullen has played a lot of games from start to finish this season for Leinster but I don't think Deccie ever trusted him and there would be legitimate questions over whether he could manage the pace of a six nations game, but I would fancy his chances. Munster's site doesn't list the minutes played like Leinster's does so I can't do a head to head between doc and cullen but I'd be confident cullen has played more 80 minute games than doc this year.

I realise I'm being longwinded and this situation is hopefully unlikely but if a second row and back row player both went off injured we'd then be in the situation of o'mahoney filling the back row space, henderson at 6, toner at 4/5, and an walking injured ryan or potentially gassed doc by 60 minutes. My point is that both ryan and to a lesser extent doc are concerns from the very start of the game and likely to need to be subbed at some point, leaving the back row exposed.

Fitz covers 15 but so does gilroy and earls, I wouldn't be sure about the last time fitz played full back but its been a while. I like Fitz a lot but given his long break I think its a stretch to consider him as cover for any position other than left wing. But then I don't know how much effort kidney has put into building fitz up as utility cover in training.

I agree about dropping rog at this point, if it was going to happen it should have been at the start of the competition.

Try this here site, usually up to date...

www.itsrugby.co.uk/playersearch.html

Wouldn't be sure about Cullen, his legs are shot now and he's a bit of a penalty magnet plus as Leinster captain he's peed off many's a ref doing a Leicester (in the ref's ear from minute one)...

afaik the contingency plan if ryan failed a fitness test was toner to start and stevenson to bench. they are clearly happy with his fitness. doc will be fine. he isnt the ball carrier that poc or macca are but will make his tackles and do his lineout work as he always does. he will play 80 if necessary. they are only allowed 2 back five subs so imo he chose as well as cud be expected in the circumstances. both toner and louis are 3rd choice at best in their provinces so it was a toss of a coin.

they are only allowed 1 backline sub and fitzgerald offers more in attack than mcfadden and trimble. with rog as back up goalkicker fitzgerald got the nod.
there is no stick to beat deccie with here so i guess people will have to wait for the performance.

Well in fairness to you I accept second row is a difficult area to cover at the minute but I would have preferred two players like henderson who can cover both second and back row in a pinch, although I realise that such a player is scarce, mclaughlin has done it but is injured I think this week, and marshall is a good bit off international level. Or perhaps continue using doc off the bench and start someone younger who's perhaps used to playing 80 minutes, ie Toner. But deccie probably doesn't trust him, and with some justification.

Alternatively Cullen has played a lot of games from start to finish this season for Leinster but I don't think Deccie ever trusted him and there would be legitimate questions over whether he could manage the pace of a six nations game, but I would fancy his chances. Munster's site doesn't list the minutes played like Leinster's does so I can't do a head to head between doc and cullen but I'd be confident cullen has played more 80 minute games than doc this year.

I realise I'm being longwinded and this situation is hopefully unlikely but if a second row and back row player both went off injured we'd then be in the situation of o'mahoney filling the back row space, henderson at 6, toner at 4/5, and an walking injured ryan or potentially gassed doc by 60 minutes. My point is that both ryan and to a lesser extent doc are concerns from the very start of the game and likely to need to be subbed at some point, leaving the back row exposed.

Fitz covers 15 but so does gilroy and earls, I wouldn't be sure about the last time fitz played full back but its been a while. I like Fitz a lot but given his long break I think its a stretch to consider him as cover for any position other than left wing. But then I don't know how much effort kidney has put into building fitz up as utility cover in training.

I agree about dropping rog at this point, if it was going to happen it should have been at the start of the competition.

It's a bit harsh to criticise Yoda's bench selection when he has so many out injured.

And Fitzgerald covers one position - 15 - that McFadden definitely doesn't.

I think dropping Radge from the team altogether would have been a step too far, especially if he needs him against Italy, say.

I imagine between doc not starting many games lately and ryan having a dodgy back that both toner and henderson could well be needed for the second row, which would mean there is no back row cover if that happens. And nothing against fitzgerald at all but he's basically being asked to cover 11-15 if there is an injury? He can cover some of those positions much better than others.

What if Fitz has already come on and then a second injury or sub requires rog to come on, would we see rog to 10, jackson to 15, and one of the wings moving inside/to fullback? As usual with deccie the first 15 is grand but the bench is a let down.

Would not be surprised at all if Ireland lose this one, especially if they kick to the scottish back three. However Scotland's 10-12-13 have been a bit of a creative black hole lately (imo at least) so there might be something to gain there. I have seen a lot of people describe Scotland's pack as a weakness, while I don't think they're world beaters I don't think they'll be a walk over either.

Would have preferred Lewis Stevenson to Toner but can see the reasons behind it i.e. Richie Grey so not to unhappy. Stevenson had a quite Wolfhounds game as well so it makes sense with the raft of injuries we have in that position. Actually would have loved to have had Andrew Farley making the bench but DK don't pick Irish players playing in France unless he's Jonny Sexton of course. :whistle:

This is quite funny. Only the Leader could interpret having the same number of players in the Ireland XV as (the undoubtedly superior) Ulster and Leinster teams as a "snub".

www.limerickleader.ie/sport/ireland-snub...ster-stars-1-4809261

Reminds me of the old gag about the fella being well-balanced - he had a chip on both shoulders

Confirmed and Tevin Doner in too :ohmy: :

Irish Rugby wrote: There are two new caps in the Ireland team to play Scotland in the RBS 6 Nations Championship in Murrayfield on Sunday, February 24th (kick off 2pm).
Paddy Jackson, who captained the Ireland U-20s in last season's championship and Luke Marshall, who starred for the O2 Ireland Wolfhounds against Fiji in November, will make their full international debuts at out-half and centre.
The side, which contains a strong mix of youth and experience, shows several changes to the team which started against England.

Keith Earls comes in to the team on the left wing in place of Simon Zebo.

In the pack Tom Court returns to the front row alongside Rory Best, who wins his 65th cap, and Mike Ross.

Donncha O'Callaghan will line out for his 93rd cap Ireland cap alongside Donnacha Ryan in the second row.

In the replacements Luke Fitzgerald makes a return to the international squad while Iain Henderson and Devin Toner have also been included.

The Ireland Team to play Scotland on Sunday, 24th February 2013 in Murrayfield, Edinburgh in the RBS 6 Nations Championship, Kick off 2:00 pm is:

(Player/club/province/international caps):
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster/43)
14 - Craig Gilroy (Dungannon/Ulster/3)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster/122)
12 - Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)*
11 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster/36)
10 - Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)*
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster/16)
1 - Tom Court (Ulster/29)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster/64)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster/26)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster/92)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster/25)
6 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster/11)
7 - Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster/24)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster/54) Captain

Replacements:
16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster/24)
17 - David Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster/4)
18 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster/4)
19 - Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster/3)
20 - Iain Henderson (Ballynahinch/Ulster/2)
21 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster/48)
22 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster/127)
23 - Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College /Leinster/23)

rossie wrote: this is all over the net now. game was in danger of being all about rog and kidney so if true a good decision from that perspective. i didnt think he wud go this way because of goalkicking and there will be a lot of pressure on jackson esp on goalkicking.
the team that appears to have been leaked is-
kearney, gilroy, bod, marshall, earls, jackson, murray, heaslip, sob, pom, ryan, doc, ross, best and court.

There's a Fat Lady warming up her vocal cords somewhere...