7 from the English Premiership, 7 from the French Top 14, 8 from the Pro12 with the top finishing club from each of the four countries plus the next best 4 (regardless of country) from the Pro12, and the previous year's HEC and Amlin winners.

There you are, and I won't even charge them for that bit of consultancy.

yes some sort of merit based qualification will definately enhance the pro12 although this will possibly hurt the weaker teams initially. If Leinster, Munster, Ospreys field there full teams in more games it will increase gates at all venues but also grow the gap between them and rest of league at least in the short term til others catch up.

Afaik the quality of the rugby on show in the AP and top14 hasnt affected attendances or tv interest in either competition so in the context of this debate its not valid.
I agree though that Toulouse and Clermont in particular recognise the value of the Hec in terms of brand growth but their problem is many of the other french clubs see their growth potntial in the expansion of the top 14 to 16 clubs.This position if adapted will be a major stumbling block in any negotiation.
As for the irish being the heartbeat of the competition i agree totally in a sporting context. however the people who run Ap and top 14 are businessmen not sportsmen so o them finance is the heartbeat so this point is lost on them.
The AP clubs have done their homework on this and believe financially they will almost be as well off financially in an Anglo/French cup.Their real long term goal is to be in a position where they can play all their top level rugby with their full squads available outside the international windows.How they intend to achieve this isnt clear at this time but its part of their longterm strategy to maximise revenue in all areas of the sport.
They also know how important the comp is to the pro12 clubs revenue streams so are calculating that they are in no position on or off the field to play serious hardball.

Yes its all very much Speculation....But I must say some sort of qualification process on merit would improve the Pro 12. Top 8 or Top whatever to Qualify for Heineken Cup, then I bet you would see more passionate Games in the league and can prob say that the likes of Edinburgh(who didnt give a flying duck about the Pro 12 this year) would be fielding stronger teams to try and Qualify...at the moment Glasgow Edinburgh Treviso and Zebre/Aironi dont care about Pro12 but a change like this would definately make it beneficial. If a Pro 12 wins the Comp then grant another Qualifying place to that League.

At the same time the Pro12 shouldnt concede any ground to the AP/Top14. keep the Leagues number of Qualification places. But a change to the League Qualification I think would be interesting for Connacht.

rossie wrote: I think for the AP this is simply about more money for their clubs. Imo they want min of 1 more club qualifying and some restrictions put onpro12 resting their players before big games in hec hence the meritocracy argument. They know that agreement is impossible on this from the pro12 unions point of view so imo they will accept 7 english teams,7 french teams and 8 pro12 teams if they have possibility of 8th team from winning amlin or hec. They will prob insist on some form of merit based qualificationin pro12. They know secretly thst compromise will have to be reached here and imo will prob accept qual of the highest finishing team from each pro12 union and the 4 other spots will be decided on league finish.
The french are a different kettle of fish though and want a smaller comp which will not be easy to accomadate.

The French put a lot of store in the Top14 which runs from mid/late August until end of May/early June between play-offs and finals.

But frankly the quality of rugby on offer in the play-off games and Final with barely a try being scored does not auger well for the health of the domestic competition...

I don't believe they will get consensus from all the clubs about pulling out of the HEC, teams like Toulouse, Clermont, Biarritz are all too well aware of how much their International profile has increased due to participation and with that increased revenue.

The Irish clubs are the heartbeat of the competition, there are no other teams in Europe that would fill an 80k stadium in a foreign country, not even half fill it. As big as Leicester and Toulouse think they are, outside their own fiefdoms they cannot generate big travelling support on the same scale as the Irish provinces (at any stage of the competition)....

The Pro12 clubs (and in particular the Irish ones) need to play hard-ball with the French & English and if necessary pull out of the comp, or request their own support not to travel to away games. Strip this competition of Irish colour and what are you left with? Two year of Anglo-French Cup and it would be dead in the water, especially if it produced the same crap we saw in the latter stages of the Top14...

I think for the AP this is simply about more money for their clubs. Imo they want min of 1 more club qualifying and some restrictions put onpro12 resting their players before big games in hec hence the meritocracy argument. They know that agreement is impossible on this from the pro12 unions point of view so imo they will accept 7 english teams,7 french teams and 8 pro12 teams if they have possibility of 8th team from winning amlin or hec. They will prob insist on some form of merit based qualificationin pro12. They know secretly thst compromise will have to be reached here and imo will prob accept qual of the highest finishing team from each pro12 union and the 4 other spots will be decided on league finish.
The french are a different kettle of fish though and want a smaller comp which will not be easy to accomadate.

Fourdogs wrote: Does anyone else think that if the English and French clubs had their way, the competition would be just between the Top 8 in each of their leagues and the rest of us could go whistle.

I think if they could just exclude Leinster they'd be happy. Interesting to see how the English have stopped whining about there being no relegation from the Pro12 these last weeks. Wonder why that is...

Does anyone else think that if the English and French clubs had their way, the competition would be just between the Top 8 in each of their leagues and the rest of us could go whistle.

There are so many different aspects to this it can't be a simple solution, but neither can the status quo remain.

Anyone who saw Clermont wipe the floor with Aironi last year, while the likes of Toulon, Dragons and Perpignan were playing in the Amlin, knows the flagship club championship isn't well served with such matches.

However, and this is a fact purposefully ignored by the English and French, the Heineken Cup isn't a tournament between three leagues, it is a tournament between 6 unions.

The argument of 'meritocracy' and 'fairness' in representing teams from the 3 leagues is nothing more than spin, an attempt to cover up their own problems.

So while there are perfectly good reasons to improve the qualification system, arguments for and against will get nowhere unless people stick to the facts.

However, it is fundamentaly wrong that Connacht had to wait more than a decade before finally getting to play in the Heineken Cup, while Zebre will be there in their first year of existence without having to justify their place. In fact for as long as they exist Zebre, along with Edinburgh, Glasgow and Treviso can't not be in the HEC. That's just wrong. In that respect, meritocracy is a valid word.

Because it is the European championship it is absolutely imperative that each union is represented in the competition, but the teams must have earned their position in one way or another. Just existing isn't enough.

As far as I see it the current system needs tweaking, not destroying. Teams, from every union, on the edge of qualification could play off for the right to be there. For those that say the calendar is crowded enough, that's only the case if you're in the top 4 of your own league and the HEC knockout stages, otherwise there are plenty of weeks where teams are kicking their heels watching someone else play. Use those weeks to have Zebre v Stade Francais, or whoever. It would be good/painful for the fans, and a bit of a money spinner.

I'm not happy that we're in the HEC twice now thanks to someone else. Ok, I'll take it, obviously, but I'd like a bit of self determination.

The idea that the leagues should form the basis of qualification is too simplistic, especially with the pro12 being a precariously constructed one. What if the Scots decide to leave the Pro12? Qualification criteria have to be drawn up yet again. And the Welsh fans occasionally make little rumbling noises about how they have more interest in Anglo-Welsh rivalries. Of course were the Welsh to move to the AP it wouldn't take long before the English changed their tune and started pointing out the competition is between the unions, not the leagues.

In the end, the English and French don't like the way qualification works. Fine, it's not perfect, but they should be trying to help the HEC, not bully and threaten their way to getting what they want. No good will come of that.

This just shows the wisdom of the Pro12 is expanding and including the Italian teams. The Franglo Cup will never have the authenticity or history of the ERC, but it will have the money.
Personally I would have an interest in the 8 from each setup, but it would keep Italian sides from the Cup for a long time and may well be a death knell for Scottish club sides when (invariably) one/two fail to qualify.

8 teams from each league going into the HC in future would have worked out for us this year. More financially driven HC might mean more income for teams taking part and would really push teams for a top 8 finish rather than a top 4

On last years finish there would be no Italian team and only 1 Scottish in the competition.

Any word on how they would deal with the previous year's winning team??

i thought we had an older thread on this but couldnt find it but its official now anyway.
the chief executive of the aviva premiership has confirmed that the league has served notice on the erc of its clubs intention to quit both european club competitions unless changes in the qualification process are agreed to. As previously speculated they want a merit based qualification process from all 3 leagues and have the support of the french clubs and it is expected that the top14 league will serve similar notice in coming weeks.

It seems certain that the two leagues are determined to take control of these competions from the rugby unions and control them themselves although there is some disagreement between them on a new format.

The english have declared their hand and want 8 teams to qualify from each of the 3 leagues based solely on league finishing position.
The french havent made their position clear but are believed to favour a smaller european comp to accomadate a top16 league domestically.
It seems an alternative anglo/french comp is already being discussed and is recieving favourable rececption from potential sponsors and tv aleviating any worries about potential revenue loss.
In fact this is strengthening their resolve to have their own way on this and they will hold a gun to the head of Pro12 negotiators when they meet. They know the revenue streams come almost exclusively from england and france and that the pro12 franchises cant survive financially without european competition.

its going to be a very tough time for the pro12 negotiators and the hard nosed businessmen that run english and french rugby have already indicated that it will have no time for sentimentality for geography etc and if the comp is to survive pro12 rugby is going to have to concede ground.

i guess the question is how much ground?