I think fans in the Pro12 nations will have no interest, or less interest anyway, in an anglo french type comp but the largest markets, the english and french probably will.Remember most of us watch AP, Top14 and Super15 rugby here already.Anyway the point he isnt saying but making is being missed here. He is basically saying that they(english and french) control the TV rights and money so therefore the future of the competition. They are willing to destroy the competition, short term at least, to achieve their goals safe in their belief that the Pro12 regions exist for HEc/european rugby and wont be able to survive without it. He implies his belief that the Munsters, leinsters of this world will come cap in hand to this new competition sooner reather than later out of necessity and they will get their way one way or another so why not sooner.

The reality is professional sport is all about the money on every level so the AP and top14 have the cards in their hand. The Pro12 contribution to the pot is a fraction of the money generated in England and France. Those TV companies and sponsors would in all likelyhood buy into a comp between top 8 AP and Top14 teams quite readily which will leave the Pro12 out in the cold. If we are honest bath. gloucester, sale or london irish are more attractive fixtures than Zebre, Treviso,glasgow etc.

I agree with most posters that a change in qualification process will help the Pro12 and make it a more sustainable competition in the long term. I also agree that it will make very little difference in the short to mid term to the teams qualifying and their performance in the Hec. It will probably mean more to teams like Scarlets, Blues, ulster, edinburgh whose strength in depth is currently not as strong as Leinster etc. Their frontline players will have to play more pro12 games than currently required to guarentee qualification which is good for the league. In time the leinster, munster and ospreys of this league may have to also.

Im on the fence in regard to the one from each nation and 4 others from league scenario. I think this will only suffice short term and and will delay the development of the Pro12 into a truly competitive league.

as an aside i did a limited amount of research into the top Pro12 international players clubs commitments. They average around 15/16 appearances a season excluding Knockout games. The Jonnie sextons/rogs of this league play around 8 games a season in the Pro12. that cant be good for the league.

Just a couple of comments on this. Firstly, as a connacht fan, I'd love to see the HC qualification change, because I think it would benefit us. My only fear would be that it might damage scottish and itilian rugby so badly that more of their teams would disband. My other comment is about how Mark McCafferty thinks Irish teams are winning the cup because they have some sort of unfair advantage. Complete rubbish. Leinster have dominated the competition for the last few years because they are, without a doubt, the best team in europe. If the system he is proposing was in place, Leinster would still have won the cups that they did. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, but as Salmson pointed out, fans will have no interest in an anglo french cup, so that is dead in the water as far as I'm concerned.

The really bizarre part of their demands is the reduction in the total numbers from 24 to 20. I'm guessing that their actual endgame they want is 24 teams with the Rabo losing one team each to France and England (This seems overly generous to England compared to France but there you go), so they need their opening gambit to be somewhere the other side of this.

8 Rabo (Best from each country, next 4 on merit)
7 England
7 France
HEC winner
Amlin winner

Imagine trying to sell a France/England only competition (assuming it didn't get vetoed by the IRB, the soccer teams have been threatening a European leagus for donkeys but UEFA has kept them in line) to Sky?

"It'll be just like the Champions League, only without Barcelona and Man Utd."

Would agree with Sea-Point

8 teams qualifying from each competition would still get all 4 Irish provinces into the HC on last years finish.

It would be unfortunate for Italian and weaker Scottish side but there is something to be said for the strongest teams contesting the Northern hemisphere premier rugby competition.

rossie wrote: I see the Aviva Premiership CEO Mark McCafferty has fired the first scuds in the lead up to next months meeting about the future of the HEC.Its on planet rugby this morning.

The most significant thing i took out of interview/article is the APs position re Pro12 nations. It seems to be their position that they are only going to negotiate with the Pro12 league and not the 4 nations which make it up. His position is that the 4 pro12 nations lost their individual bargaining positions when they entered the pro12 and now must be viewed collectively. Essentially his position is that the HEC is a competition for the best teams in the Top 3 professional leagues of europe and nationality has nothing to do with it. He likens the The 4 Nations individual positions as being akin to the RFU insisting that their representatives be from each region in England.

Whatever ones view is on this it appears the AP are not for backing down and he reiterates their intention to form their own comp with french league if necessary. He adds that all other teams would be welcome to join should they wish which idicates his belief that HEC wont survive without French and English. The Gun is well and truly loaded.

Basically despite what he's saying it's Sabre rattling and a vain effort to get control of the ERC/HEC. Pro12 should call their bluff and change qualification, then continue on winning the thing and then see what'll they do...

Our provincial structures would stand up to the stress, we generate enough players to sustain our success (especially when you consider how many young lads are across the water in Premiership/Championship)...

The notion that they can create a sustainable competition just between English & French sides is laughable, it would die on it's arse within two years, the majority of English clubs have too small followings and the French still barely travel...

It's all about the Money/Power and not about the Rugby....

I see the Aviva Premiership CEO Mark McCafferty has fired the first scuds in the lead up to next months meeting about the future of the HEC.Its on planet rugby this morning.

The most significant thing i took out of interview/article is the APs position re Pro12 nations. It seems to be their position that they are only going to negotiate with the Pro12 league and not the 4 nations which make it up. His position is that the 4 pro12 nations lost their individual bargaining positions when they entered the pro12 and now must be viewed collectively. Essentially his position is that the HEC is a competition for the best teams in the Top 3 professional leagues of europe and nationality has nothing to do with it. He likens the The 4 Nations individual positions as being akin to the RFU insisting that their representatives be from each region in England.

Whatever ones view is on this it appears the AP are not for backing down and he reiterates their intention to form their own comp with french league if necessary. He adds that all other teams would be welcome to join should they wish which idicates his belief that HEC wont survive without French and English. The Gun is well and truly loaded.

ummm, wrote:
So, while the competition is between unions things are not so clear cut. There are 9 different shareholders.

The 6 unions plus the English premiership, the French league & the Welsh regions.

Six unions, equal representation, but the French, English, and Welsh have allowed their professional teams one representative each (with thanks to the Oirish Times):

ERC Board of Directors.

Independent Chairman: Jean-Pierre Lux. England: Rob Andrew (RFU), Peter Wheeler (Premiership Rugby). France: Michel Palmié (FFR), René Bouscatel (LNR). Ireland: Philip Browne (IRFU), Peter Boyle (IRFU). Italy: Fabrizio Gaetaniello (FIR), Orazio Arancio (FIR). Scotland: Ian McLauchlan (SRU), Mark Dodson (SRU). Wales: Roger Lewis (WRU), Stuart Gallacher (RRW).

Just saw an article on the ERC site which is quite interesting.

So, while the competition is between unions things are not so clear cut. There are 9 different shareholders.

The 6 unions plus the English premiership, the French league & the Welsh regions.

This looks like things were badly handled. The premiership and the RFU have not always seen eye to eye and it's important to point out the RFU have not had anything to do with the current situation, it's entirely the clubs that have stirred things up.

The Pro12 aren't even a shareholder in the ERC, so why one earth should HEC qualification be based on it?

salmson wrote:
Fans talk sh1t all the time and none of it is worth the fibre it's transmitted on.

Sure look at us here.

hey ya checky :evil: some of us speak very good crap at times

only joking. the worse lot are munsterfans

rossie wrote: ...have a look at the AP clubs fans forums on this.

Fans talk sh1t all the time and none of it is worth the fibre it's transmitted on.

Sure look at us here.

I wasnt aware of the IRB situation but you(anyone) should have a look at the AP clubs fans forums on this. Leicester tigers in particular but all are very confident of Anglo/French comp being a runner and many regard it as a best case scenario for their clubs.

If you skip over the tit for tat type posts there is some very informative stuff there. I dont have the skill set to transfer it here.

Good points but I'd disagree on a few points:

rossie wrote: ala wendyball between prem league and fa.

This battle is long lost by the FA. Which is important because...

rossie wrote: If you dont agree to it in some acceptable form we are taking our sponsors and tv money and forming our own competition.

...in Wendyball (nice term), following on from the leagues getting power from the national FAs, came the gradual emasculation of the international game. Regardless of how big the English and French rugby leagues are, they are Seriously Small Beer compared to international rugby.

The French and English can't set up an alternate league without IRB say-so, and the IRB is unlikely to sanction one, for the obvious turkey/Christmas reasons.

That is why i suggested the compromise scenario mary hinge and i have suggested in earlier posts.

I presume you mean the 8/7/7/2 Rabo/Fr/En/winners breakdown with at least one team from each union. For all the posturing it's hard to see any other result (and it'd be a fairly equitable one, yes).

ummm, you are hitting the crux of the argument there.

The AP and Top14 are leagues and they generate the erc money. They want to treat the pro12 as a league in terms of negotiation. They view the stakehoders in the pro12 as irrelevent and want each league treated the same(french position slightly more complex but share this view). The are also taking on their respective unions by proxy as there is an ongoing battle there for control ala wendyball betweem prem league and fa).

The pro12 position is we are 4 separate unions and need to be treated as such for the good of the game.
The Anglo/French retort to that position is shag that, you are all in bed together, sort it out yourselves. this is what we want/demand. If you dont agree to it in some acceptable form we are taking our sponsors and tv money and forming our own competition.

People here and on other forums are suggesting pro12/irish teams pull out, play hardball etc, which is fine in theory but where would we go and more importantly how long will our unions be able to run the regions/provinces in that scenario.imo they will all shed at least one very quickly and maybe more.
One thing is for certain and that is we have two more years of the Hec as we know it, so lets enjoy it while we can.
Imo there is a lot of validity to the meritocracy argument. I also recognise the impossibility of that scenario to the 4 shareholders of the pro12.That is why i suggested the compromise scenario mary hinge and i have suggested in earlier posts.

That's not my point. My point is people need to stop thinking in terms of three leagues and start thinking in terms of 6 separate unions.

The pro12 is a rickety marriage of convenience. Ignore where they would go, think about what would happen if they did.

ummm, wrote: And what would happen if Wales decided to leave the Pro12?

And where would they go exactly? The English Premiership? I don't see those English turkeys voting for Christmas as at least 2 of them would have to make way, even if league numbers were boosted to 14.

The Welsh Premiership is semi-pro, though the LLFrenchCllWelsh Clltlop 18 certainly has a ring to it...

And what would happen if Wales decided to leave the Pro12?