this is back in the news today after the meeting in dublin yesterday i think.
the pro12 teams have made a counter proposal of a 32 team hec comp with amlin a comp for tier 2 countries. this would invole 8groups with the winners going forward to qtrs.
the erc are going to analyse the two proposal and current set up and report back by next meeting.

imo the best scenario for irish rugby and the competition itself is the 20 team format but with a 6/6/8 split rather than the proposed 6/6/6 + team from lge who wins amlin and hec.
the 32 team format requires an irish winner for connacht to get in same as current set up.

rossie wrote: its back in the media again today. so much for the agreement to limit public comments.
its the french clubs this time. clermont want change to pro12 qualification and a 20 team competition. toulon want comp ran off in two month window so they can concentrate on top14 for rest of season.

the big comments today tho come from erc chairman lux. he says that english clubs have gone directly to south african and french clubs behind back of erc and are proving very difficult to deal with. he sven saod for firsr time that comp may have to move on without them. its on planet rugby today.

South African teams? They are off their rocker ! Let them off

toulon want comp ran off in two month window so they can concentrate on top14 for rest of season.

Talk about copying the Super 15 down below. This makes me want to vomit. :sick:

its back in the media again today. so much for the agreement to limit public comments.
its the french clubs this time. clermont want change to pro12 qualification and a 20 team competition. toulon want comp ran off in two month window so they can concentrate on top14 for rest of season.

the big comments today tho come from erc chairman lux. he says that english clubs have gone directly to south african and french clubs behind back of erc and are proving very difficult to deal with. he sven saod for firsr time that comp may have to move on without them. its on planet rugby today.

The meeting went very well aparently and has been adjourned to the 8th of nov in rome for more talks with all sides agreeing to limit commenting on todays meeting to brief statements.

ConnachtCows wrote:

Some French Lad wrote: Premiership Rugby had been using French Rugby’s discontent as a bargaining tool, suggesting that a breakaway Anglo-French competition could be formed.

But the LNR’s vice president Patrick Wolff has made clear that French clubs do not want to form a new breakaway tournament which wouldn’t include PRO12 clubs.

“The English put a lot of pressure on us in the past few months to accept the idea of an alternative Franco/Anglo club competition almost like it was a condition before discussing anything else," Wolff told AFP.

"That's not what we wanted to do. Save a catastrophic failure at the negotiations, which I don't think will happen, we want to play with the Celts and with the English.

"For us, there is a product (the European Cup). This product must be improved at the negotiations. We want everything to be resolved by the end of the year.

"Rugby has no interest in being swept up in uncertainty during two years. It is imperative that everyone structures things properly in their own country."

The French teams know which way their bread is buttered in Europe, away from their home grounds English & French teams contribute nothing to the colour of the tournament outside of the Semi-final/Final stage (if they qualify). The success and attractiveness to sponsors has been built on the foundation of large groups of Irish supporters travelling to away fixtures.

It was Irish Clubs who drove attendences up to record numbers, you can forget the likes of Quins/Irish & Sarries playing in front of heavily subsidised crowds at Wembley & Twickers and Stade Francais's Mad Max Guazzini bringing the dancing girls and circus to Stade de France. Strip out the freebie tickeholders and the £10-20/€10-20 tickeholders and you'd be left with three-quarter emoty stadiums.

While they may agree to take a reduction in the monies recieved, the IRFU should fight tooth and nail to minimise any reduction. Brian Moore wrote an article in the Telegraph yesterday:

Brian_Moore wrote: The French clubs hold the key in war over European rugby's riches
Premiership Rugby has every right to set up its own TV deal and challenge the ERC’s Celtic bias.
By Brian Moore

Battle for Europe's future: Leinster, pictured celebrating last season's Heineken Cup win, and Munster have dominated Europe in recent years and Premiership Rugby is aiming to end that.

This extract is from an Irish Rugby Football Union financial statement: “although the Irish TV market contributes only €5 million per annum to the central pot (€3 million to the Six Nations and €2 million to the European Rugby Cup), the other TV markets contribute more, and the Irish Rugby Football Union therefore receives €16 million each year from the central pot (€11 million from Six Nations and €5 million from ERC).”

The same principle goes for the Scottish, Welsh and Italian unions and their top clubs; they get a lot more than they give and central money underpins their professional game. Cash is the basis of the present dispute between Europe’s top clubs, but is not the sole reason for Anglo-French disaffection.

Actually from a HEC prspective he actually makes a case for Irish teams, (ignore the 6N money becasue that is a shared ownership competition and each participant regardless of population is as valued as the other) but for the HEC Irish Boradcasters (RTE) via the IRFU contributes €2m to the HEC pot and gets only €5m back.

The RFU annual report for last year (not as detailed as the IRFU's) idicates that they got £31.8m in broadcast revenue, again the bigger portion will be from 6N but at the same ratios as the IRFU they still got the bones of £10m from the HEC and the remainder from 6N...

Don't see much inequality in that from an HEC persepctive...

Some French Lad wrote: The Ligue Nationale de Rugby...

Nice one. Some good articles in the Guardian and Sindo on this, the concensus is that the Pro 12 are going to make concessions to the French to isolate the English with the result being:

24 teams

HEC champions
Amlin Champions
7 AEP
7 LNP
8 Rabo, including at least one representative of each of the 4 nations

(This would leave Connacht needind to come 6th to guarantee inclusion, though 7th would have sufficed last year and 8th could suffice if one of the Italian teams started doing well.)

HEC final moved to April.

Larger slice of TV revenue to French and English clubs. However since the TV revenue will increase, the Rabo teams will still be better off (just not so much as the French and English).

Some French Lad wrote: The Ligue Nationale de Rugby (LNR), the governing body for domestic rugby in France, has clarified that unless there is a “catastrophic failure in negotiations” it will not consider abandoning the Heineken Cup for a breakaway tournament.

This assertion from LNR comes as representatives from all six countries - Ireland, England, France, Scotland, Wales and Italy – meet in Dublin today for an ERC shareholders meeting.

English and French clubs have voiced their dissatisfaction with the current structure of the Heineken Cup which they believe favours sides competing in the RaboDirect PRO12.

Accordingly both sets of clubs served notice of their intention to leave the competition at the end of the current contract which expires after the 2013-14 season unless the necessary changes are applied to the competition’s format.

Premiership Rugby increased the pressure on ERC last week with the announcement of a new TV rights deal with BT which included the exclusive rights to air European rugby matches involving Aviva Premiership teams.

This deal threatens the existence of the Heineken Cup however ERC have claimed that Premiership Rugby did not have the authority to sell the broadcast rights to European games.

Premiership Rugby had been using French Rugby’s discontent as a bargaining tool, suggesting that a breakaway Anglo-French competition could be formed.

But the LNR’s vice president Patrick Wolff has made clear that French clubs do not want to form a new breakaway tournament which wouldn’t include PRO12 clubs.

“The English put a lot of pressure on us in the past few months to accept the idea of an alternative Franco/Anglo club competition almost like it was a condition before discussing anything else," Wolff told AFP.

"That's not what we wanted to do. Save a catastrophic failure at the negotiations, which I don't think will happen, we want to play with the Celts and with the English.

"For us, there is a product (the European Cup). This product must be improved at the negotiations. We want everything to be resolved by the end of the year.

"Rugby has no interest in being swept up in uncertainty during two years. It is imperative that everyone structures things properly in their own country."

Quin Kong wrote: With the football analogy it is the equivalent of English, French, Spanish and German clubs pulling out with the possibility of Italian and Dutch clubs joining them.

Bad analogy. Much as I'm in no rush to compliment Leinster, you should pick your countries so that Barcelona aren't pulling out.

With the football analogy it is the equivalent of English, French, Spanish and German clubs pulling out with the possibility of Italian and Dutch clubs joining them.

by my reading on it the vote(if required) could be as tight as 6 votes a piece. the french, english and welsh unions have each given their clubs 1 of their 2 votes respectively. it is likely in this ecobomic environment thatthey will support theie clubs stance as a row domestically could put finances under thret. the welsh are key. if they side with theenglish then the tournament is over as we know it.
imo bt wouldnt have made their statement unless they were guarenteed a stake in future european competition. this means that the ap want significant reform in comp structure but more importantly the right to control their own tv deal.

Quin Kong wrote: The IRB <em>could</em> say that a future tournament run by the ERC would be the European competition but would they be legally able to stop an alternative competition and would they want to if it was seen as bringing in and expanding emerging rugby nations?

I think they would stop any alternative competition. It's very easy for a group of clubs in one country to break away - English Premiership, half the soccer leagues in Europe - because there's no alternative.

But it's harder to break away from European competitions. UEFA and FIFA have kept an iron grip on international club competitions in soccer, as they realise that to surrender the running of these to the clubs will weaken international competition.

I don't see the IRB turkeys voting for Christmas by allowing the English and French clubs to run the HEC.

Don't forget that the English Premiership has only *one* of 12 votes on the HEC council. It's quite possible the RFU (who have the other English vote) will kick them into line sooner rather than later. Last time the English clubs tried this they ended up out of European competition for a season, and I doubt the RFU wants a repeat of that the season leading up to the 2015 World Cup.

salmson wrote:

Quin Kong wrote: That may have been before the ERC and Sky tried to imply the deal was illegal and that they had already come to an agreement about the future of the HC.

The problem for the Premiership is the ERC is right. The HEC is the tournament recognised by the IRB, and they can't run an alternate one without their permission.

True, for the life of the competition which will end in its current format with notice handed in by Prem and French rugby. The IRB could say that a future tournament run by the ERC would be the European competition but would they be legally able to stop an alternative competition and would they want to if it was seen as bringing in and expanding emerging rugby nations? I think they'll take a back seat until a winning solution seems apparent and then back that side.

Quin Kong wrote: That may have been before the ERC and Sky tried to imply the deal was illegal and that they had already come to an agreement about the future of the HC.

The problem for the Premiership is the ERC is right. The HEC is the tournament recognised by the IRB, and they can't run an alternate one without their permission.

swift4prez wrote: well reports coming from france is they want to stay as it is.
only people making noise is the english clubs who are running out of money.
french clubs dont be banging on about religation as they send out second choice teams the week before a heineken cup game as they have the money.
look at the priemiership last season, world cup players gone, and some clubs were very thin, which is why exeter finish where they did

You've got to love diplomacy!