its_phil wrote:

rossie wrote: Rumour has it that both sides have been actively engaged with the mediator in spite of prl and lnr saying that there was nothing to talk about. The irb are also involved. Both sides know what the irb expect from them and according to fanning on Sunday the sky TV deal is water tight so all that's left to negotiate is the format and more commercial input/ influence for the clubs. In those circumstances a deal is imminent.

Where is this rumor coming from?

Picking it up on twitter and articles from journos here, Wales and England. Mews met with Bruce Craig chairman of PRL. He also met with IRB and spent time in Paris.

Based on the bits I've picked up there appears to be consensus on the following among journos.
Control overall control to remain with unions but certain comercial concessessions given to clubs. It isn't clear what this means but negotiating TV is included.
Finance- its to be a 3 way split between lges.
TV- the sky contract will be honoured. Its on the table for everyone to see and apparently its water tight even if erc is disolved they hold rights for replacement. This may be problem for prl as their rep on erc board has signed it as has RFU rep and all other partners. It depends on their BT deal and if they can get out of it.
Format- its almost 20 teams and merit based with some concessions to be ironed out for non qualified nations with final two spots. Amlin is also to be a 20 team format with some tier 3 comp providing final 2 spots
. The finer details on both are still being trashed out but its generally accepted that this is direction its going.

Of course this changes everything from irfu perspective. Irfu control 4 of the 12 teams that make up the pro12 and IMO will have to demand 1/3 of money that pro12 recieves. In addition they will have to insist that the 6 qualifiers from pro12 must be based solely on merit and any concessions to non qualified nations must come from final 2 hec spots for tournament winners . Interesting times ahead even after Heineken is sorted.

Everything hangs on whether PRL can get out of BT deal.

Interesting article here. Sounds like worm is turning.
www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/clu...ntrol-escalates.html

Unlike 1995-96 and 1998-99 I don't think the English clubs would allow themselves to become fully isolated - there's too much financially at stake. More likely they'll take the compromises on offer and make it sound like a victory.

rossie wrote: Rumour has it that both sides have been actively engaged with the mediator in spite of prl and lnr saying that there was nothing to talk about. The irb are also involved. Both sides know what the irb expect from them and according to fanning on Sunday the sky TV deal is water tight so all that's left to negotiate is the format and more commercial input/ influence for the clubs. In those circumstances a deal is imminent.

Where is this rumor coming from?

Was anyone else surprised to hear this from Alfredo Gavazzi (FIR)?

“The Italian Federation also believes that it is crucial to keep four of our clubs in the Amlin Challenge Cup to allow our young players to develop. Overall, I am confident that an agreement can be reached.”

I would nearly have thought they'd be glad to see the back of that part of the deal. Notwithstanding Catania and Prato's victories over a certain Irish side, the Italian teams are generally on a guaranteed hiding in the Challenge Cup.
Having amateur and semi-pro teams is a good idea if they're from emerging nations but for a country that already has two fully pro teams, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
It makes me worry about how willing the PRO12 unions are to compromise on format.

www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/san-siro-...-cup-final-1.1552997

Rumour has it that both sides have been actively engaged with the mediator in spite of prl and lnr saying that there was nothing to talk about. The irb are also involved. Both sides know what the irb expect from them and according to fanning on Sunday the sky TV deal is water tight so all that's left to negotiate is the format and more commercial input/ influence for the clubs. In those circumstances a deal is imminent.

Pienaar is no fool. He signs a 3 year deal with Ulster. Brilliant for them. He must have got a sniff.

PRL et al have all gone quiet. Mmm?

....or am I reading to much into it.

Its been reported elsewhere that the irb favour a 3 way split of revenue as demanded by the prl/lnr. Strikes me that this is designed to appease the club owners. We stay in control but you make more money to keep you in business .

It effectively puts 2 of the main stumbling blocks to bed in that the final arbitrater has clearly stated their position on both.
That leaves format and TV.
I'm sure the TV companies will come to some arrangement.
The prl are adamant on a 20 team format. Lnr not against the 24 team format. Either way it has to be merit based while somehow ensuring all 6 unions are represented. Thats almost impossible. The fairest way solution IMO is for pro12 to have 8 spots merit based in either format. If 24 then 8/8/8, I'd 20 6/6/8.

sea_point wrote:

menacethedenis wrote: Gerry Thornley in the Times today:

"In France, the LNR chief executive Paul Goze has maintained the French clubs will not turn back and vowed that the French Federation “cannot force us to play” in the Heineken Cup, adding: “The French clubs can survive without the European Cup, but the Celtic and Italian teams cannot. Since the other competition (H Cup) will not take place, there is no alternative but to defend ours.”
However, Midi Olympique yesterday cited “several sources” in speculating that the FFR will announce, in the next few days, a hardening of its stance in opposition to the LNR’s attempts to forge a new breakaway competition and, what’s more, if the Top 14 clubs refuse to take part in the Heineken Cup, they will look to enter regional teams from outside the LNR umbrella."

Be fascinating if the FFR / RFU do go regional teams for the HEC, and then state the will only select for the National side for these squads, who'll blink first when players ask for release from their clubs to chase Caps and RWC places...

In terms of competition for the Irish provinces I don't think it makes any difference really...

Wouldn't be surprised if the French went down that road but can't see the RFU doing it, they have to keep the clubs happy with the World Cup coming up. The PRL have really backed themselves into a corner here, there's going to have to be a massive climbdown from them by the looks of it and whatever happens they're probably going to get sued by either BT or Sky for breach of contract.

According to an article in Le Monde

It basically says that the IRB will under no circumstances consider approving the creation of the new competition proposed by the PRL and supported by Goze. The governance of the game should remain with the unions.

It also says that PRL are talking to the mediator and that the ERC are happy to adjust revenues (which IMO is all that this is about) so that the English and French clubs get 25% and the rest share the other 50%. There are two comments. The first accuses Goze of wanting to kill the European cup so he can create a Top 16 thus guaranteeing his clubs (Perpignan) continued participation and the second say that the first is paranoid and that it's all about money but it's a bad idea to give the clubs more money because they'll just give it to the players.

menacethedenis wrote: Gerry Thornley in the Times today:

"In France, the LNR chief executive Paul Goze has maintained the French clubs will not turn back and vowed that the French Federation “cannot force us to play” in the Heineken Cup, adding: “The French clubs can survive without the European Cup, but the Celtic and Italian teams cannot. Since the other competition (H Cup) will not take place, there is no alternative but to defend ours.”
However, Midi Olympique yesterday cited “several sources” in speculating that the FFR will announce, in the next few days, a hardening of its stance in opposition to the LNR’s attempts to forge a new breakaway competition and, what’s more, if the Top 14 clubs refuse to take part in the Heineken Cup, they will look to enter regional teams from outside the LNR umbrella."

Be fascinating if the FFR / RFU do go regional teams for the HEC, and then state the will only select for the National side for these squads, who'll blink first when players ask for release from their clubs to chase Caps and RWC places...

In terms of competition for the Irish provinces I don't think it makes any difference really...

rossie wrote: Tony ward seems to be reaching for the life jacket today in the indo. Appears to be supporting the PRL position now but cloaking it as a compromise

No balls, never had, always playing the conservative game, could never take a stand.

Tony ward seems to be reaching for the life jacket today in the indo. Appears to be supporting the PRL position now but cloaking it as a compromise

And blanco who is the incoming president of FFR has stated that there will be no softening of FFR position under his tenure. He favours a pan European competition and is against separate TV deals for each organisation. Its collective bargaining for the ffr.
He believes the competition needs to evolve and supports calls for reform but it must remain union controlled for the good of the game in the NH.

The FFR rightly recognise the threat that PRL and LNR represent to the 6ns and the international game.

Richard Corkerill threatened the RFU at the weekend. AFAIK he basically told them to support the PRL or else. It will be interesting to see how they react to that.

Gerry Thornley in the Times today:

"In France, the LNR chief executive Paul Goze has maintained the French clubs will not turn back and vowed that the French Federation “cannot force us to play” in the Heineken Cup, adding: “The French clubs can survive without the European Cup, but the Celtic and Italian teams cannot. Since the other competition (H Cup) will not take place, there is no alternative but to defend ours.”
However, Midi Olympique yesterday cited “several sources” in speculating that the FFR will announce, in the next few days, a hardening of its stance in opposition to the LNR’s attempts to forge a new breakaway competition and, what’s more, if the Top 14 clubs refuse to take part in the Heineken Cup, they will look to enter regional teams from outside the LNR umbrella."

Salmon that would be the desired result in any other businesd(survival of the fittest and all that) but in the sports business you need strong opposition to grow your business so sarries going to the wall isn't good for anyone. Sky also require a strong product to sell to their customers so it wouldn't be good for them either.

Funny all the leaked BT deal stuff says the French have an out if there are less than 4 teams in it. It could be that the English get locked out of Europe for 3 years while the other 5 nations continue. Could be baseless rumour, but would explain the desperate courting of the South Africans.

You have to wonder why SKy did a deal with the Rabo, and didn't get at all excited at the BT deal or posturing from the English?

Did they know what the deal was and how it would play out the whole time?

Certainly if I were Murdoch/Montgomery Burns I'd be looking to screw the English teams to the wall, to the point where I'd see Saracens and Bath bankrupted, pour encourager les autres (les autres being the Premier League/Football League) to realise what side their bread's buttered.