Samoa have just beaten wales 26-19 in the millenium stadium and the 6 nations and grandslam champions have apparently now lost 5 in a row also. :oops:

i gotta say I watched POM's penalty again today and he was hard done by imo. I think he would have got clean away with that in the first half. I also think that while Kidney has criticism Heaslip should come in for some. The penalty that gave away the yellow was dumb and he didn't communicate well with the ref or other players around him. I know there's leading by example but a captain these days is about a lot more than that.

sea_point wrote:

rossie wrote: murray was the better of the two scrumhalves on saturday but dont let that get in the way of some media stereotyping.

Not like for like scenarios though Rossie, not even close. By comparison Murray had an armchair ride in the first half when the game was looser, it would have suited Reddan better if anything. Saffers won because they basically shut up shut and proceeded to maul us into submission. Kidney did his usual trick of making the wrong replacements at the wrong time and then making the key ones way, way, way to late...

Our pack were clearly second best for the second half (despite a good rearguard effort by Macca and one or two others), and it's very rare that momentum changes upfront without replacements being introduced. So what does Kidney do, brings on McFadden for Trimble, and then Reddan for Murray ...WTF..?

<li>When Ryan went off and DO'C came on at 63mins, did anyone actually think it looked like Ryan was going to be able to come back on? So anyway move on 5 mins and Ryan's back on the sideline and O'Callaghan comes off, then another 5 mins and O'Callaghan is on the touchline and this time to replace McCarthy who was still going pretty well actually. Why didn't he just keep the clearly rattled Ryan off and let O'Callaghan have the full twenty to get motoring. </li>

<li>Why did he wait until 70th minute to replace Ross who had been struggling in scrums from the 55th minute on and had absolutely no positive impact as a carrier (the guy is just too slow and too upright to make any yards with the ball).</li>

<li>Strauss had played well, but the Bokke had pretty much being trying to mangle him from early on. Why did Yoda wait until the 75th minute to bring Cronin on?</li>

<li>O'Mahony for Henderson, O'Mahony's only meaningful contribution was getting involved in the kerfuffle after Henry was taken out so why wait until the 74th minute with he game all but lost...</li>

There is an optimum time for replacements to be effective in games and ten minutes or less is not it, that's fine if you're winning and you want to break the momentum of a game up and slow it down. Was he afraid that the changes might enable us to win..??

Kidney is just a rabbit in the headlights at this stage, the killer instinct is long gone.....

Maybe you are right but imo kidney has only one real choice in this which is to see his contract out and in the mean time possibly apply for the connacht job before the deadline. If successful the starting/finishing are compatable. Such is media opinion that short of a 2nd grand slam his contract wont be renewed.
Resigning, fro his own personal point of view, isnt an option.

It was a good rearguard led by Macca and healy but well backed up by strass, ryan, henry and Pom. Our captain was conspicuos by his absence but il give Ross a pass as we know hes carried for the scrum(average to poor here though). In fact imo the indiscipline of the boks both in terms of pens conceded and dirt was directly because of the agression the above named players brought to the contact area. That was a massive Sa pack though and when they got their act together there was only going to be one winner.

i agree with you about the macca substitution. it made no sense in its context.

i can only assume he waited so long to take ross off because not having seen bent play he didnt trust him for anymore.

again i dont think he trusts cronin at lineout time and only made change when strauss out on his feet.

i dont agree with you about pom and ive covered it above.

Re Murray/reddin that applies to murray too. the first 20 of 2nd half were completely different from the 1st half. Bokke, who were penalised reg in 1st, got away with murder at breakdown in 2nd and slowed our ball right down.

menacethedenis wrote:

rossie wrote: irish rugby opinion is becoming like irish opinion on our economy. the media keep tellimg us the source of our problems and over time we accept their opininion as fact without examining it for ourselves.

Just out of curiosity what's your basis for this comment? Are you saying if one of us expresses an opinion that agrees with or has already been stated by someone in the media that that is how we formed it?

What i mean is that alarge amount of what is said and not said after international games particularly but not exclusively, is heavily influenced by media(print and other) stereotyping of players.a lot of these dont stand up to examination or are delibrately only part of the story highlighted to suit a particular agenda.
Il use the example of what hasnt been said here or much elswhere-
1. Rosses poor performance in the scrum and 2 penalties from that performance. Imo thats because we have been lead to believe that he is the saviour of irish rugby and can do no wrong at scrum time(which the first part is partially true).
2. Heaslip at 8 and captain. Tipped by our media for a lions place but a no show yesterday.
3. Sexton. He played quite well passing wise but he like mcfadden fell off tackles in 2nd half and kicked poorly both tactically and technically from about the 30 min on. Again touted as lion(and prob will be). But his tactical kicking,both when and how, could be better.

The game isnt all about running. its a very important part of course but good tactical kicking is still a major part of the game and we are sometimes easy to defend against because of the lack of it. im not saying drop sexton but we should demand more of him.
its compounded by the lack of a kicking game at 12 aswell which is partly why imo murray is still starting scrum half. however people get up on the fact that reddin is the quiker and crisper passer of the ball which again imo is media driven. its only one aspect of a scrumhalfs game al be it the main one. A srum half also needs to be able to kick, carry, defend his channel and boss his pack. Imo reddin isnt far enough ahead of reddin in terms of passing and break to ignore his deficiencies in kicking, defending and pack management. Murray himself could be more forceful on latter but does do it. Reddin not so much. very rarely are these points used in the murray/reddin debate.

There are lots more examples out there but id be here all day. I learned when i first started doing coaching that sometimes you dont always remember things from a game in the manner in which the game actually went(if that makes sense).preconcieved ideas or opinions formed from whatever source and regularly reinforced by popular media can and often does influence how we view things and form our own opinion.At gov/economic level people get payed a lot of money to exert that influence.
Our media take great pride in their ability to influence and even form public opinion. why should our sports media be any different.

they arent, all you have to do is look at the campaign they are launching to get cooder the connacht job.

rossie wrote: murray was the better of the two scrumhalves on saturday but dont let that get in the way of some media stereotyping.

Not like for like scenarios though Rossie, not even close. By comparison Murray had an armchair ride in the first half when the game was looser, it would have suited Reddan better if anything. Saffers won because they basically shut up shut and proceeded to maul us into submission. Kidney did his usual trick of making the wrong replacements at the wrong time and then making the key ones way, way, way to late...

Our pack were clearly second best for the second half (despite a good rearguard effort by Macca and one or two others), and it's very rare that momentum changes upfront without replacements being introduced. So what does Kidney do, brings on McFadden for Trimble, and then Reddan for Murray ...WTF..?

• When Ryan went off and DO'C came on at 63mins, did anyone actually think it looked like Ryan was going to be able to come back on? So anyway move on 5 mins and Ryan's back on the sideline and O'Callaghan comes off, then another 5 mins and O'Callaghan is on the touchline and this time to replace McCarthy who was still going pretty well actually. Why didn't he just keep the clearly rattled Ryan off and let O'Callaghan have the full twenty to get motoring.


• Why did he wait until 70th minute to replace Ross who had been struggling in scrums from the 55th minute on and had absolutely no positive impact as a carrier (the guy is just too slow and too upright to make any yards with the ball).


• Strauss had played well, but the Bokke had pretty much being trying to mangle him from early on. Why did Yoda wait until the 75th minute to bring Cronin on?


• O'Mahony for Henderson, O'Mahony's only meaningful contribution was getting involved in the kerfuffle after Henry was taken out so why wait until the 74th minute with he game all but lost...

There is an optimum time for replacements to be effective in games and ten minutes or less is not it, that's fine if you're winning and you want to break the momentum of a game up and slow it down. Was he afraid that the changes might enable us to win..??

Kidney is just a rabbit in the headlights at this stage, the killer instinct is long gone.....

rossie wrote: irish rugby opinion is becoming like irish opinion on our economy. the media keep tellimg us the source of our problems and over time we accept their opininion as fact without examining it for ourselves.

Just out of curiosity what's your basis for this comment? Are you saying if one of us expresses an opinion that agrees with or has already been stated by someone in the media that that is how we formed it?

macca did get a few punches to the face twice that i noticed, he seemed not to even notice them.
he did also get a kick to the head when he was on the ground, looked to me that it was done to hurt him. when he got up, he looked confused for 5mins.

i been talking to a few munster supporters who were saying that POM was going to get a yellow and one lad, (munster season ticket holder) want to know a bookie that would give him odds.

kidney always try to put fez, sob and heaslip into the same team but sadly when there needed 2 are injured.ulsters henderson looks good when i seen him so if i was coach, id start him with muldoon as cover 6. muldoon with the few caps he has, never had a bad game for ireland.

another debate on here is scrum half, i think murray is slightly the better of the two but neither are great. if i was irfu, i wouldnt give pienaar a new contract, and let ulster play paul marshall and we have our own KM coming threw

rossie wrote: afaik strauss only missed his target once in lineout and that was very earl in game.

cronin lost two in a row poorly while on as blood sub for strauss in 1st half.

next people will be saying pom gave away too many pens. he gave away 2.

irish rugby opinion is becoming like irish opinion on our economy. the media keep tellimg us the source of our problems and over time we accept their opininion as fact without examining it for ourselves.

amazingly one of the biggest rugby ones out there is that connacht players arent good enough for ireland and most outside province accepted that before saturday.

murray was the better of the two scrumhalves on saturday but dont let that get in the way of some media stereotyping.

great post.

The official stats were POM, Henry, Heaslip & Ryan - 2 penalties, Bowe, Earls, d'Arcy, Ross, Macca - 1 penalty

rossie wrote: afaik strauss only missed his target once in lineout and that was very earl in game.

cronin lost two in a row poorly while on as blood sub for strauss in 1st half.

I stand corrected - I just remember us losing a few, and some messy ones that we did win. I forgot all about Cronin's cameo. We all know he has issues with his throwing.

rossie wrote: murray was the better of the two scrumhalves on saturday but dont let that get in the way of some media stereotyping.

I'm not sure I agree about Murray being the better of the two on Saturday, but regardless, I don't rate him generally. For me, a scrum half needs to be able to pass well and get the team moving forward, quickly. Murray is far too ponderous at the back of the ruck, his passing is generally directly at, or even behind the receiver, but rarely in front. Anyway, that's just my opinion, but it is one I formed myself - not because of what I've read/heard in the media.

Just wanted to say that as good as the Macca hit was, the taking of the little dig in the chin and the non reaction to it was better. You'd hope that this was recognized by everyone involved in the disciplinary process so that if he does go before them again for whatever reason we can use the old Dylan Hartley defense and plead reformation of character.

At the risk of upsetting rossie i have to say i actually counted 3 pens given away by POM when i watched the game back last night. Not saying that I am right. But he does make me nervous that he is going to fall off his leash at any moment if something even remotely looks like kicking off. Let's put it this way had one of the SA forwards given POM a lick in the chops I think we would have seen the start of WWIII.

Was impressed with Zebo at full back - a couple of aimless kicks but you didn't feel we missed Kearney too much. He has really impressed me this year with the progression in his carrying into contact, making a really big effort to hit the ground and set up quick ball, small things but you'd feel they might just be the making of him as an international.

afaik strauss only missed his target once in lineout and that was very earl in game.

cronin lost two in a row poorly while on as blood sub for strauss in 1st half.

next people will be saying pom gave away too many pens. he gave away 2.

irish rugby opinion is becoming like irish opinion on our economy. the media keep tellimg us the source of our problems and over time we accept their opininion as fact without examining it for ourselves.

amazingly one of the biggest rugby ones out there is that connacht players arent good enough for ireland and most outside province accepted that before saturday.

murray was the better of the two scrumhalves on saturday but dont let that get in the way of some media stereotyping.

RonanL wrote:
Yes, all those things happened. I also noticed what appeared to be an attempted sleeper hold, wwf style, on Cian Healy in a ruck at one point.

Jesus, I spotted that as well. You could see Healy going white in the face.
Did anyone else laugh a little at the idea of Healy getting questioned by the concussion doctor? While he had a brilliant game, he comes across so very thick. I cant imagine the doctor knew what to make of him

menacethedenis wrote: some sly punches, late tackles and someone kneed Sexton when he was on the ground

Yes, all those things happened. I also noticed what appeared to be an attempted sleeper hold, wwf style, on Cian Healy in a ruck at one point.

In general, I'm not sure how I feel about the game on Saturday. I was delighted with Macca getting the MOTM award, and it was good to see Bent come on and do well. Our lineout needs to improve, but I think that was mostly down to Strauss' throwing, which I'm assuming will improve when he settles in. The scrum held up well too, which was a pleasant surprise. I find Conor Murray's selection incredibly annoying - his passing is just not good enough, and it's obvious to me that we play much better with Reddan at 9.

ummm, wrote: Don't think SA were dirty. Quite in your face, but that's not something to cry about. Apart from Pietersen's hit, which was stupid and ignorant more than dirty, I don't think there were any flashpoints.

A mate was telling me there were some sly punches, late tackles and someone kneed Sexton when he was on the ground, but like I say I haven't rewatched it yet

Don't think SA were dirty. Quite in your face, but that's not something to cry about. Apart from Pietersen's hit, which was stupid and ignorant more than dirty, I don't think there were any flashpoints.