galway_gas wrote: There's been a lot bandied about on this type of arrangement in the last week. The question from a "rabo" perspective is whether it will be a clean top 6 or whether there will be a guaranteed position for each of the four countries. From our point of view a clean fight for top 6/7/8 would be best. The potential for playoffs is an interesting new dimension. Could generate some good home attendances.

Playoffs would definitely add some excitement to the end season but not sure how they'd work. I assume they'd be played on the same weekend as the Pro12/Prem playoffs. That could mean that if a team goes all the way in the H Cup but is struggling in the league, they might have to play qualifiers for next season's H Cup on the two weekends either side of the final of this season's, which could be somewhat farcical.

It does seems inevitable that they remove the four semi-pro Italian sides from the Challenge Cup as they are just a hangover from before Italian involvement in the Pro12, and having done that, splitting the two comps 20/20 instead of 24/16 makes a certain amount of sense, though it sounds like they are also demoting the Spanish and Romanian sides to a new competition (i.e. telling them to feck off), so that would only leave 18 in the second tier.

Lot of blanks still to be filled in.

Is it just me or do the numbers not add up?

'The other two places would not go to the holders and the winners of the Amlin Cup, but would be decided by a play-off involving the sides who finished seventh and eighth in their respective divisions.'

3 into 2 doesn't go so who is going to be the league to miss out or will it involve a series of cross league play offs.

Heineken and Amlin Champions not qualifying for the following season is a joke.

In the Heineken, given the strength of a lot of the French sides, its not inconceivable that you could easily end up with an equivalent of a Liverpool or Chelsea Champions League type situation where the champions wouldn't have qualified based on league placing and would end up in the Amlin which would be a joke.

The Amlin winners not qualifying will be another kick in the teeth to a tournament that struggles for credibility. With 4 Heineken sides to join the Amlin it will never have been as strong as it will be at that stage.

Its likely both sides will have qualified in their own right but that's a backward step.

From a Rabo viewpoint it would certainly help the league be more meaningful and competitive and would give us a half chance of making progress to the Heineken of our own accord.

Still plenty of work to do on this deal. Reform is needed but the status of the Amlin must not be diminished any further if they want the competition to have a future. The third tier tournament is a welcome potential development and may give sides like Enisei etc. the chance to show what they can do.

Craic Head wrote:
[I have to say that it is nothing to get too fired up about. I would not be a fan of him waving or the other English eejit Ashton's Swallow dive, but it is up to them. Armitage was just about to run in for a momentus try for him and the club that he played for, he meant it to be celebratory rather than disrespectful I think.

Is Armitage really worth all the time and effort.

As an ex-player myself, I would have smacked him (or any other show-off) for leaving such a difficult tick in the final, especially as he could have easily gone around to the posts and left a much easier conversion.

Not a big fan of Brian Moore, but on this occasion he might have a point

There's been a lot bandied about on this type of arrangement in the last week. The question from a "rabo" perspective is whether it will be a clean top 6 or whether there will be a guaranteed position for each of the four countries. From our point of view a clean fight for top 6/7/8 would be best. The potential for playoffs is an interesting new dimension. Could generate some good home attendances.

rossie wrote: im a bit skeptical about this atm but its been printed so here goes. Maybe seapoint might confirm this journos credibilty on this. it sounds unbelievable.

I would say it's pretty close to the money if it's in the Guardian.
Six guaranteed places for the PRO12 seems harsh. And not sure how six into two goes in the proposed play-offs.
I'd hoped they'd have at least held out for an 8-6-6 split in favour of the PRO12.

im a bit skeptical about this atm but its been printed so here goes. Maybe seapoint might confirm this journos credibilty on this. it sounds unbelievable.


Heineken Cup 2012-13
Heineken Cup meeting makes progress but future hinges on TV deal• ERC's deal with Sky is sticking point for Premiership clubs
• Agreement made in principle to reduce competition to 20 teams
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The Guardian, Monday 20 May 2013 18.08 BST
Delon Armitage, left, and Jonny Wilkinson celebrate Toulon's Heineken Cup final victory but the future of the tournament remains in doubt. Photograph: Paul Harding/Action Images
An emergency meeting called before the Heineken Cup final in Dublin produced a breakthrough in the bid to save the tournament, but the signing of any accord still hinges on the destination of the television contract.

The meeting on Saturday, which included the unions involved as well as the English and French clubs, saw agreement in principle that after next season the Heineken Cup should be reduced from 24 teams to 20 with the spare four taking part in an enhanced Amlin Challenge Cup. There would also be a third tournament for teams from tier-two nations such as Russia, Romania, Spain and Georgia.

The 20 teams in the Heineken Cup would be made up of the top six in that previous season's Aviva Premiership, Top 14 and RaboDirect Pro 12 with the profits shared equally by the three leagues. The other two places would not go to the holders and the winners of the Amlin Cup, but would be decided by a play-off involving the sides who finished seventh and eighth in their respective divisions.

The French Rugby Federation arranged the meeting, which did not include the tournament oragnisers, European Rugby Cup Ltd. The FFR acted as a catalyst in frustration at the lack of progress made in meetings of ERC's stakeholders at the end of last year. The last official meeting convened was back in December, and while there has been shuttle diplomacy since then, the French feared that clubs would go into next season not knowing if there were places in the Heineken Cup to play for.

The French and English clubs served notice they were pulling out last June. They said they would not sign a new accord unless there was a radical change in the way the European tournaments were organised: they wanted qualification for the Heineken Cup to become meritocratic and a shakeup in how proceeds were split.

Other innovations proposed were clubs having the greatest say on the ERC board and the tournament headquarters being moved from Dublin, but the television contract could prevent the new deal being agreed.

The response of ERC was to agree a contract extension with the tournament broadcasters, Sky. A few months later, Premiership Rugby announced a £150m deal with BT Vision that included provision for a European tournament.

Premiership Rugby's position is that if Sky remain the broadcasters, the involvement of the English clubs in the Heineken Cup after next season will end. Its contention is that the extension with Sky has no legal validity because ERC, given the notice served by clubs in England and France, did not have a tournament to sell.

"There is no Heineken Cup after next season," said an English club official. "What we are talking about is building a new tournament structured in a different way. We are not going to be forced into anything that the clubs are unhappy with and the French feel the same way. Progress was made at the meeting in Dublin but it will all come down to the television contract.

"The deal we have with BT Vision will generate so much extra revenue that even though the money would be split equally between the three leagues, the Celtic countries and Italy will receive more than they do now. They may be getting smaller slices but the cake will be far bigger."

The next step will be on 5 June when ERC has a scheduled meeting of its board of directors in Dublin. The future of the Heineken Cup will be high on the agenda.
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Heineken Cup 2012-13 · Heineken Cup · Rugby union

salmson wrote:

pinky wrote: Don't think that's quite right. I can't find it officially explained anywhere, but as far as I know from previous draws, if there are seven teams from any one country, the lowest ranked of those teams has to be in a pool with another team from the same country.
You can see this in the highlights of last years draw if you can stand listening to Craig Doyle.

I'd rather take your word for it than listen to Craig Doyle, thank you very much. Slight correction on your odds though:

Pot 2 English Teams; Cardiff :- 20% chance of getting any/each these, as you said.

Pot 4 English Teams :- 10% chance of getting either (i.e. we must get an English team if we get Cardiff in pot 2)

Pot 4 French Teams :- 16% chance of getting Racing (Racing can't go in Castres group, so they have a 1/5 chance of getting each of the other French teams, but this only applies if we've drawn an English team in Pot 2, so 1/5 * 4/5 = 4/15 = 16%)

Pot 4 Italian Teams:- 32% chance of getting either (the "remainder" of the 80% likelihood of drawing an English Pot 2 team is split evenly).

To summarise (I think, and given we're guaranteed France in Pot 1):

England Pot 2, Italy Pot 4 :- 64%
Wales Pot 2, England Pot 4 :- 20%
England Pot 2, Racing Metro Pot 4 :- 16%

I'll have to take your word on that Salmson. I'm skeptical about your assumption that Racing would have an equal probability of getting each of the 5 French teams available, but any mathematics that gives me a 64% chance of a trip to Italy is good mathematics in my book, so we'll go with that.

Hotel Villa Ducale here we come.

Craic Head wrote:

connachtexile wrote: Remember the last time we played Toulon in Galway? They didn't travel badly that day and have spent massively since. I also see that Delon Armitage is covering himself in more glory after his wave in the HEC Final. Here's his exchange with Brian Moore

balls.ie/rugby/delon-armitage-responds-t...-delon-armitage-way/

I have to say that it is nothing to get too fired up about. I would not be a fan of him waving or the other English eejit Ashton's Swallow dive, but it is up to them. Armitage was just about to run in for a momentus try for him and the club that he played for, he meant it to be celebratory rather than disrespectful I think.

Did he shi*te, he stuck his tongue out then waved to James to come and tackle him and then swallow dived in celebration, the first two bits did not form part of the celebration they were to take the pis* out of James.

Delon though undeniably a talented rugby player has absolutely loads of form and it's why he hasn't worn an England jersey in yonks, and won't under Lancaster if every other Full Back option has their legs chopped off. He's major trouble with a capital T...

Some of the Clermont players had a right go at Armitage after their first try, and given he grew up in France the subtleties of whatever they were saying wouldn't have been lost on him, so I suppose he was just giving as good as he got.

Of course Delon being Felon, he couldn't but come across as petty and utterly devoid of any class, but that's not exactly news, is it?

connachtexile wrote:
Remember the last time we played Toulon in Galway? They didn't travel badly that day and have spent massively since. I also see that Delon Armitage is covering himself in more glory after his wave in the HEC Final. Here's his exchange with Brian Moore

balls.ie/rugby/delon-armitage-responds-t...-delon-armitage-way/


I have to say that it is nothing to get too fired up about. I would not be a fan of him waving or the other English eejit Ashton's Swallow dive, but it is up to them. Armitage was just about to run in for a momentus try for him and the club that he played for, he meant it to be celebratory rather than disrespectful I think.

I get your point but I have to disagree. There's a reason his nickname is Felon Armitage and its not for his good behaviour.

Does anyone know when the draw will actually be made?
I know it was June last season

Seems it was June 12th last year

connachtexile wrote: Remember the last time we played Toulon in Galway? They didn't travel badly that day and have spent massively since. I also see that Delon Armitage is covering himself in more glory after his wave in the HEC Final. Here's his exchange with Brian Moore

balls.ie/rugby/delon-armitage-responds-t...-delon-armitage-way/

I have to say that it is nothing to get too fired up about. I would not be a fan of him waving or the other English eejit Ashton's Swallow dive, but it is up to them. Armitage was just about to run in for a momentus try for him and the club that he played for, he meant it to be celebratory rather than disrespectful I think.

pinky wrote: Don't think that's quite right. I can't find it officially explained anywhere, but as far as I know from previous draws, if there are seven teams from any one country, the lowest ranked of those teams has to be in a pool with another team from the same country.
You can see this in the highlights of last years draw if you can stand listening to Craig Doyle.

I'd rather take your word for it than listen to Craig Doyle, thank you very much. Slight correction on your odds though:

Pot 2 English Teams; Cardiff :- 20% chance of getting any/each these, as you said.

Pot 4 English Teams :- 10% chance of getting either (i.e. we must get an English team if we get Cardiff in pot 2)

Pot 4 French Teams :- 16% chance of getting Racing (Racing can't go in Castres group, so they have a 1/5 chance of getting each of the other French teams, but this only applies if we've drawn an English team in Pot 2, so 1/5 * 4/5 = 4/15 = 16%)

Pot 4 Italian Teams:- 32% chance of getting either (the "remainder" of the 80% likelihood of drawing an English Pot 2 team is split evenly).

To summarise (I think, and given we're guaranteed France in Pot 1):

England Pot 2, Italy Pot 4 :- 64%
Wales Pot 2, England Pot 4 :- 20%
England Pot 2, Racing Metro Pot 4 :- 16%

pinky wrote: Yeah, that would probably be the best option. Toulon in October would be a nice trip I'd say.

If I were you, I would'nt be that optimistic about the wheather in the south Of France during this period.. freezing wind, floods..., in short Galway without the Gulf Stream!

Fourdogs wrote: Dream draw for me if possible (sure someone will tell me if not), would be

Pot 1 - Clermont or Toulon - 1st game and at home, big number in the Sportsground.
Pot 2 - Cardiff - easy travel for both sets of fans and maybe a win or 2.
Pot 4 - Exeter - as above.

And who knows :whistle: :whistle:

Yeah, that would probably be the best option. Toulon in October would be a nice trip I'd say.

Remember the last time we played Toulon in Galway? They didn't travel badly that day and have spent massively since. I also see that Delon Armitage is covering himself in more glory after his wave in the HEC Final. Here's his exchange with Brian Moore

balls.ie/rugby/delon-armitage-responds-t...-delon-armitage-way/