Creedence wrote:
Borders - I'll reply later when I get more time.

Don't worry about replying I don't see us coming to a resolution. I see from your points throughout the thread where you are coming from and its hard to disagree with most of your points.

rossie wrote: Dineen for example is behind Laulala(nz capped) and Earls for the 13 jersey. He has a B+I winners and Runners up medal to his name with Munster A. The same can be said for Dave O callaghan, Luke o dea, johne Murphy, Sean Scanlon< Henry etc. To say that any of them wouldnt contribute and improve connachts squad because of their current ranking at Munster is just false.

Obviously didn't make myself clear. I totally agree with you that they would improve our squad. The reason the likes of Dineen, O'Callaghan etc are still at Munster while some other fella has been made available to Connacht is because they are better than the guy we end up with. That's our problem.

Munster have squad full of players with the raw talent required challenge in the top half of the Rabo. Most come from their Academy. We don't have that base level of quality, and short of striking oil under the dog boxes I don't know how we can bring it in.

Creedence wrote:

connachtexile wrote: if we can't get better players then we can make the players we have better!

How? By doing the same things that other teams are doing to make their players better? How does that work? The fact that we are more or less in the same place as we were last year suggests were are already doing that.

But we are not in the same place afaik and thats the problem and i think we will find it very difficult to break the 30pt mark this season which in this league amounts to a considerable amount of regression.

your munster comparison doesnt really stack up imo because you fail to take ability levels and expectation/ambition into consideration.
Dineen for example is behind Laulala(nz capped) and Earls for the 13 jersey. He has a B+I winners and Runners up medal to his name with Munster A. The same can be said for Dave O callaghan, Luke o dea, johne Murphy, Sean Scanlon< Henry etc. To say that any of them wouldnt contribute and improve connachts squad because of their current ranking at Munster is just false. Ditto for many at Leinster and probably ulster. Connacht would be delighted with 7th and happy with 8th in lge. the other three have ambitions of winning it and willbe very disapointed if not in playoffs. They operate in a different league completely to connacht in terms of ambition and achievement.(and budget).

If you take Everton Fc as an example they have a large amount of ex Man U players on their books and are a top 8 team because of it. can they compete against Man U. sometimes at home yes but in general no, sound familiar? the difference is that Moyes has found a way to keep thenm focused in all games and not just v the big teams and their league position has improved as a result.

while its different sports the goals are the same and thats the challenge for the new coaching ticket. Win the non glamourous games. its easy to be motivated to play Munster or leinster at home. Its against Cardiff, edinburgh and newport next wkend that you prove your worth to the club.

connachtexile wrote: if we can't get better players then we can make the players we have better!

How? By doing the same things that other teams are doing to make their players better? How does that work? The fact that we are more or less in the same place as we were last year suggests were are already doing that.

It's all very well talking about 'working on the basics' or 'upping the skills' etc... but this is bread and butter stuff that is done at every level, and the slogans are pretty meaningless when you start drilling down.

I hadn't seen this article prior to this, but Billy Millard's quote at the very start sums up what I see to be the unavoidable problem

“I haven’t said it on record since I’ve been here but the key is recruitment,” said the Australian. “If they (Connacht) want to improve they have to get better players in. End of.”

www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1222/1224328119377.html

So how do we do that?

If you're getting in a guy who has been let go by, say Munster, he is almost certainly not as good at the basics as his Munster opposite number that they retained, and as Munster are also continuously focused on getting the basics right, then how do you get him up to their level? In most cases you can't.

We are relying on other clubs misjudging a players abilities and hoping to find diamonds in the rough. The only way we can get genuinely top quality players is by bringing them through and holding onto them. What are the odds of the tiny Connacht rugby population creating the critical mass to be able to really make the step up and match the other 3? Not likely. And I suspect that's what Millard is getting at.

I know I'm probably sounding like a miserable old bast@rd at this stage, but I do think we need to keep our feet on the ground - and slowly build from there.

So I can certainly that a lot of it is down to poor judgment or being under pressure but equally its down to the coaching staff to figure out a better way of dealing with that pressure, and to eat the fcuk out of any player who for instance is consistently kicking for the line but instead kicking it straight into touch or not putting it out.

Likewise I can see that Connacht's squad are perhaps not the most naturally gifted, but its been well documented that Schmidt made a point when starting with Leinster to improve the handling skills of a team already known for its high skill level. The same could be done for Connacht, and in fact is needed much more than it was at Leinster.

there's also the argument of making the best of what you have, I think Glasgow seem to have done that this season and even Munster to an extent. Again I'm not saying that Connacht are completely on par with those teams but I don't think the difference is as pronounced as the table would suggest. You say that the players are in a pressurized environment which leads to more mistakes, that might be true, so then it is incumbent on the coaching staff to come up with a plan to fix this. I'd take ground out, 1-3 point wins on a regular basis any day over the inconsistent but nice to watch rugby the team occasionally creates atm, I'm guessing most here would too.

You mention players being sloppy and allowing themselves to be sloppy, if this is happening (which I believe it is in some positions/players at least) then its easy to explain, the squad is so small that anyone who is first team will remain first team barring huge deficiencies. Its already been mentioned elsewhere on the forum that the coaching staff seem to rate Rodney for his carrying ability and want to keep him on. I have nothing against him as a person but I think its clear to see he's our worst prop but if he wasn't injured he'd still be a bench option, even though it seems obvious by now that even the staff that rate him are well aware that he can't prop and would be a liability starting a game.

+1

This is one of the reasons why I want to bring in a skills coach. It would/should help eliminate alot of the silly mistakes that are been made. How many times have we seen Connacht players with the try line at their mercy mis-throw or fumble the final pass? Yes other teams do it but we seem to do it more than most.

When the Lions toured New Zealand last time after the first test skills coaching was brought in because it was obvious alot of the guys while great at set pieces couldn't do the simple things right in broken play which was suicide against the Kiwis. We need to bring in a strong skills system at all levels for the simple reason that if we can't get better players then we can make the players we have better!

Am i saying that this will solve all our problems? lord no but in tight games were a simple mistake could turn the tide, eliminating even a percentage of mistakes will lead to us to win more games.

I see what you're saying and agree to an extent Creedence. The reason I think it is at least partly down to Elwood is that for instance we all see pointless kicks being used either as a 'tactic' or to relieve pressure, we can see it isn't working but it hasn't changed for seasons now. Perhaps this is approved by the coaching staff, or if not then they have not made it clear that it is unacceptable.
So I can certainly that a lot of it is down to poor judgment or being under pressure but equally its down to the coaching staff to figure out a better way of dealing with that pressure, and to eat the fcuk out of any player who for instance is consistently kicking for the line but instead kicking it straight into touch or not putting it out.

Likewise I can see that Connacht's squad are perhaps not the most naturally gifted, but its been well documented that Schmidt made a point when starting with Leinster to improve the handling skills of a team already known for its high skill level. The same could be done for Connacht, and in fact is needed much more than it was at Leinster.

there's also the argument of making the best of what you have, I think Glasgow seem to have done that this season and even Munster to an extent. Again I'm not saying that Connacht are completely on par with those teams but I don't think the difference is as pronounced as the table would suggest. You say that the players are in a pressurized environment which leads to more mistakes, that might be true, so then it is incumbent on the coaching staff to come up with a plan to fix this. I'd take ground out, 1-3 point wins on a regular basis any day over the inconsistent but nice to watch rugby the team occasionally creates atm, I'm guessing most here would too.

You mention players being sloppy and allowing themselves to be sloppy, if this is happening (which I believe it is in some positions/players at least) then its easy to explain, the squad is so small that anyone who is first team will remain first team barring huge deficiencies. Its already been mentioned elsewhere on the forum that the coaching staff seem to rate Rodney for his carrying ability and want to keep him on. I have nothing against him as a person but I think its clear to see he's our worst prop but if he wasn't injured he'd still be a bench option, even though it seems obvious by now that even the staff that rate him are well aware that he can't prop and would be a liability starting a game.

phatguerilla wrote:
I don't know about this years' home game v cardiff, but we should definitely have won last years. The team started like a train in the first half with two tries off rolling mauls, but all the good work was undone in classic Connacht switch off style, Cardiff coming back into the game during the 'championship minutes' either side of half time and winning via the boot of Dan Parks....Cardiff are weaker than they were last year and Connacht on paper are stronger, but we didn't win either match, I'm betting both were for the same reasons. We lost against scarlets this season for the same reason, against leinster away and munster at home, this season and last, due to silly mistakes...Most of our losses are not due to being completely dominated by a better team but from our own mistakes.

We didn't lose that cardiff game last year because the squad or team weren't capable of winning, we lost because of certain trends such as poor handling and switching off a key times which should be unacceptable but which have been allowed to fester. I don't want to say it is Elwood's fault that this continues to exist but the number one job for the new coach is to come in as an outsider without any fear of damaging friendships or egos, and lay down the law when it comes to the stupid stuff.

There is an assumption that because the 'stupid stuff' continues, that Elwood and co have ignored it, and someone else can fix that. I find that incredible to be honest. Why would pro coaches allow players to jeopardise their careers by not 'laying down the law'?

On top of that you'd also have to question the professionalism of the players if they are simply being sloppy. It requires a lot of very odd behaviour to explain it like that.

On the other hand, you can explain it simply by pointing out that our players make 'stupid' mistakes because they are in a pressurised environment and they are pushed or are pushing beyond the limits of their capability. The obvious question I can see coming is 'well, why does it happen more to Connacht players than other teams?'. And the obvious answer is that the players who end up at Connacht aren't top class players.

Anyone who watched golf while Tiger was in his pomp would have witnessed the way leading players crumbled on the back nine on Sunday and Tiger came through to win. All he had to do was play his 95% game, but to beat him, they felt they had to push it to 99% and this resulted in 'stupid mistakes'. I think that is the root of some of our problems. Not taking 3 points and going for broke against Leinster, or Biarritz is an example. To a certain extent, that can be fixed by encouraging cooler heads. But my impression is that a lot of our other 'basic' mistakes are down to the fact that our players (home grown and recruits) are not top class.

People have been praising our recent signings and then wondering why we aren't getting better results. They've all done ok, but aside from Parks none have been a huge improvement on what went before (and in his case that is really a reflection on our post-Keatley 10's) . With the exception of White, they are all 'Connacht class' players IMO. Not good enough to make the grade with any of the other three provinces or other sides in the top half of the table. Players that are marginally more likely to make a handling error, miss a tackle or give away a penalty. And those margins can be costly.


Borders - I'll reply later when I get more time.

rossie wrote: i agree that we are well capable of occasional ambush but why cant we beat the cardiffs of this world at home? thats where the big problem lies not losing to leinster away.

i also agree re players. we recruited well imo last season. white, jhw, faloon, parks and poolman have all proven useful. so have buckley, mckeon, marmion, henshaw and kearney.

in spite of that results and performances havent improved.

the attendances and sponsorship will regress if anything unless the new coach is given reigns now and allowed a free hand( budget guided) to make changes and recruitment necessary.

I don't know about this years' home game v cardiff, but we should definitely have won last years. The team started like a train in the first half with two tries off rolling mauls, but all the good work was undone in classic Connacht switch off style, Cardiff coming back into the game during the 'championship minutes' either side of half time and winning via the boot of Dan Parks....Cardiff are weaker than they were last year and Connacht on paper are stronger, but we didn't win either match, I'm betting both were for the same reasons. We lost against scarlets this season for the same reason, against leinster away and munster at home, this season and last, due to silly mistakes...Most of our losses are not due to being completely dominated by a better team but from our own mistakes.

We didn't lose that cardiff game last year because the squad or team weren't capable of winning, we lost because of certain trends such as poor handling and switching off a key times which should be unacceptable but which have been allowed to fester. I don't want to say it is Elwood's fault that this continues to exist but the number one job for the new coach is to come in as an outsider without any fear of damaging friendships or egos, and lay down the law when it comes to the stupid stuff.

i agree that we are well capable of occasional ambush but why cant we beat the cardiffs of this world at home? thats where the big problem lies not losing to leinster away.

i also agree re players. we recruited well imo last season. white, jhw, faloon, parks and poolman have all proven useful. so have buckley, mckeon, marmion, henshaw and kearney.

in spite of that results and performances havent improved.

the attendances and sponsorship will regress if anything unless the new coach is given reigns now and allowed a free hand( budget guided) to make changes and recruitment necessary.

You're not being realistic and your expectations are way out of line IMO?

How are expectations way out of line? We finished on 37 points last season with a weaker squad. As I have admitted it was during a world cup year so obviously teams were missing players for some games but this year teams have been missing players for games too.

What teams have improved in your opinion? I'd love to know?

Cardiff brought a terrible side to Galway in Round 1 and beat us. They have gone way backwards this season but even their 2nd/3rd choice came to Galway and won that is not good enough for a team with any sort of expectations.

Look at the Edinburgh fans message board and tell me they aren't a team in disarray. We made them look good that evening by playing to their strengths and gifting them a couple of tries and we still should have won it. We ballsed up a 2 on 1 overlap in their 22 and missed a late drop goal in the final minutes and lost by 1.

Its a fair point to say injuries would have a greater effect on us than some teams if everyone was at full strength but other teams have injuries too on top of missing their international players for long periods. The young lad who was on the bench from Leinster Adam Byrne thought it was a joke when Schmidt was ringing him to sit on the bench for the Ulster game.

Everyone in the bottom 5 from last year can't come 7th. There is nothing 'realistic' about it.

You say if everyone improves more than we do then we will be going backwards which is a fair points but look at the squads. Edinburgh are the only one in the bottom half to have improved their squad but they haven't advanced. If they got a right coaching setup in I would expect them to be higher up the table.

Why isn't it realistic to achieve 7th? Dragons and Cardiff have gone backwards, Zebre are beyond hopeless, we finished above Treviso the last 2 seasons and Edinburgh have Bradley in charge so if we can't have an expectation within the squad to at least push for 7th what do you believe a reasonable expectation is? Is a good season one where we don't finish last like in Bradley's time?

When Connacht get beaten with such regularity in matches you don't think you should be beaten in, it is time to look at your expectation levels. We lost the bulk of those because the other side were better than us. And the tables shows that they are better than us over a range of matches and not just the season. It is undeniable that we are better than Zebre, regardless what their expectations are of beating us. The tables show it.

Yes Cardiff are better than us but Cardiff A shouldn't be.

Its not necessarily games where we are expected to win. Each game takes on its own life. We weren't expected to beat Musnter at home but they were there to be beaten if we had the conviction.

More often than not we are beaten by a better team but there have been a few occasions where results have been let slip.

Aside from that, it is ludicrous to suggest Connacht players could magically improve their performances by others simply demanding that they do so. That's red-faced-roaring-coach-on-the-sidelines-Junior-B-football stuff, not pro sport.

It is far from ludicrous. Take a short trip back in time to Bradley's final season. Prior to him announcing his departure we were getting hammered out the gate most weeks. Once he decided to leave and players knew there would be a new management team and that contracts would be up for renewal we saw a different Connacht team in the majority of games between there and the end of the season.

Also as you say it is a pro sport so the team should be seeking to improve its standing and we are well behind even last years standards in the league. In all workplaces if things are going backwards staff are all let known and made redouble our efforts.

Look at other sports. Say for example QPR in the Premier League, they have much more quality in their squad than some of the teams above them but some of their 'star' players can't be bothered to put in the effort.

In every single job I've worked in there are people who will go through a wall for you and there are others who will just do the absolute bare minimum or will do a good job some days and not so good other days. Others just lose their way a bit and need to be helped back to form. Its human nature.

I'm not going to single out individual players but there are certain players who have shown they can perform at this level in the past but this season have not come up to the standards expected of them. Its not roaring and shouting as you'd suggest, its finding the reasons why players are not performing to potential and / or making basic errors that they weren't making last season. Is it down to coaching in general or is it an individual issue with the player.

rossie wrote: so you have come to the same conclusion as i have lately. that connacht are in fact a bad team capable of the occasional big performance and result.

where to from here though. the first change is coming as i think that its also a poorly coached team. i expect more of the coaching ticket to be gone by end of 1st season.

That's a pretty blunt way of putting it We're well capable of ambushing big name teams that don't do their homework. Quins, Biarritz, Leinster.. The Leinster one is unforgivable from their perspective, because they get a beating every few years, yet the complacency returns. Contrast it with Munster who always turn up to do a dirty job, meet fire with fire and walk away with another win.

The coaching staff are probably in for a big overhaul alright. I just hope they get it right. We're probably very attractive to the wrong sort. But ultimately it will depend on the quality of player and revenue.

Our players almost always fall into 3 categories

1) the top players produced from the weakest province (our local boys)
2) 2nd grade players produced by the three other provinces
3) foreign journeymen over varying quality


That is not a recipe for global domination, and it is not something that can be radically changed from what I can see.

Revenue

Attendances - I can't see much room for more growth on the scale seen in the past couple of years.
Sponsorship - vicious circle, again, not real prospect of a jackpot there

In a nutshell, I'm unconvinced about the sustainability of the whole project and see the greatest threat as unrealistic expectations. If I can go to watch Connacht playing pro-rugby in 20 years time then that's an achievement. For me and them

so you have come to the same conclusion as i have lately. that connacht are in fact a bad team capable of the occasional big performance and result.

where to from here though. the first change is coming as i think that its also a poorly coached team. i expect more of the coaching ticket to be gone by end of 1st season.

rossie wrote: these are the margins and Connacht are on the wrong side of them too often.

That's the point. If you find yourself on one side or the other more often than you expected, then that should tell you something. It isn't luck or lack of effort. It is quality.

I find myself agreeing with everyone on this thread to some extent.

Yes a lot of people on this forum succumb to the mindless cult of the coach and expect Eric and Co. to magic better results from the ether.

But equally Rossie's professed hope for the season - break the 40 points barrier and finish 7th - seems utterly reasonable to me, considering we finished 9th on 39 points and 8th on 37 in the last 2 seasons.

i agreed with borders that 40pts+ was a realistic goal. that was based on the opinion that the new signings and better attitude snd application in winnable home games would deliver those extra pts.
that imo wasnt unrealistic but justifiable view point. season tickets were marketed on the basis of an improving team afterall.

they have lost games at home this season because they havent performed not because they were beaten by a better side. im speaking of blues and scarlets specifically as i was there but it may apply to edinburgh and munster aswell.

if they had won those two they wud be on 23 pts and in contention fir 7th. these are the margins and connacht are on the wrong side of them too often.