"Real Rabo" update:

Pos(P12) Team P W L TB LB Pts
1 (1) Ulster 17 15 2 6 1 67
2 (3) Leinster 17 11 6 4 2 50
3 (4) Ospreys 17 11 6 2 2 48
4 (6) Munster 17 10 7 4 4 48
5 (2) Glasgow 17 9 8 3 4 43
6 (5) Scarlets 17 8 9 3 2 40
7 (7) Cardiff 17 6 11 1 1 29
8 (10) Connacht 17 6 11 1 3 28
9 ( Treviso 17 6 11 1 3 28
10 (9) Edinburgh 17 4 13 1 5 22
11*(11) Dragons* 17 5 12 3 2 25*
12 (12) Zebre 17 0 17 1 5 6

Creedence wrote:

phatguerilla wrote: . Definitely agree with what Rossie and others have said about the new coach and a lack of vision, I want to see a plan being put in place and executed properly.

Sorry Phats, but I'm going to have to file that under 'Won't somebody please do something!'. :evil:

At the risk (gone beyond a risk at this stage) of repeating myself, Connacht don't have a monopoly on 'plans' or 'trying harder' or 'cutting out the silly mistakes'. Every other club will also a plan - one that involves staying ahead of us in the table. And if they have greater resources than us, they'll succeed.

Can some mod ban me from this thread now please?

I agree with a lot of what you're saying maybe I'm just being more optimistic (not always warranted of course). If we had won the Cardiff game which by all accounts we should have we would be on par with them, 4 wins each. Beat Edinburgh at home, 5 wins. These are both games that should be viewed as must wins, as pointed out above we've finished above Edinburgh the last two seasons. Even if you think that Munster are too high up in the table/money department, you must see that that game was there for the taking. I don't think anyone here expects Conn to be challenging for a home semi in the rabo this year or next, we just want more consistency and more games won that should be won.


I already used the Glasgow example, that is a team with a plan that makes the most of what they have, which I feel are quite similar to our resources. Nobody really considers them world beaters but they have a definite, defined plan and they execute it. We seem to have a wishy washy plan that wastes ball through aimless kicking and accepts huge numbers of knock ons as a matter of course.

Creedence wrote: Tough sh1t Borders, you're getting a reply anyway.

Creedence wrote: The first team wasn't that much weaker. Gav was playing out of his skin, so was Muldoon. Swifty wasn't injured or playing bit parts and, like JOC, was a year younger. Brett Wilkinson and Loughs were playing far better. So was TOH. Henry was there. Frank Murphy played quite a bit.

Hmm agree on some points not on others. For example Rodney or Dylan Rodgers were at tight head for a lot of games early in the season. Ronan Loughney was pushed into tighthead half way through the season and started to get to grips with it in the final few months. I'd agree Wilkinson was performing better but Buckley has emerged as another option this year which he wasn't really last year.

Harris Wright is imo a better option than Flavin was last year as he started to wane.

I'd agree on most of the rest bar Frank Murphy who imo was going through the motions for most of last season. Marmion isn't the complete package yet but he's a step up on anything we had at scrum half last season.

We have improved our depth / quality in other areas too imo but its fair to say there have been a few players a year older and some not hitting the levels of last year.

Creedence wrote:
Cardiff should have been beaten out the gate. No excuses, it was an unacceptable performance.

Edinburgh broke their duck the week before they came to visit us on a high, and put out their Scottish internationals against a depleted Connacht side. That was a good win for them, not a bad loss for us.

Fair point, we were down a few bodies that evening and they were at or close to full strength, still think its a game we left behind though.

Creedence wrote: Just because we've finished above Treviso before doesn't mean anything. Edinburgh have a better squad IMO, but they are flakey in the same way we are. It wouldn't surprise me to finish above either or both of them, but expecting it is another thing. We lost sight of Cardiff the day they won at the Sportsground.

I'd agree Edinburgh have a better squad. Most seasons I wouldn't have much hope of us finishing above them but with Bradley in charge and morale low this season provided an opportunity. As you say last season is history but if we can't aim to finish above a side we've finished above the last two seasons we have no real ambition. i'd agree that the loss at home to Cardiff was a big swing and it was hard to see us targetting finishing above them after a 6 point swing like that.

Creedence wrote: No they were there to be beaten if we could breach their defensive line, which we couldn't, because they were rock solid, and because they had an outhalf who ran the show.

In general Munster were solid but we breached their defensive line twice but failed to execute basic finishing.

Right, this is getting very repetitive.

The question is (1) "Are we underachieving as a province?" and the subquestions from that are (2) "How do we measure this?" and (3) "How is the coaching team performing?"

(2) How do we measure this?

I'd suggest the following "real Rabo" table which gives the cumulative points totals for the the teams in Pro12 and HEC. Obviously all HEC pools are not equal and some are more equal than others; likewise I've put Dragons in 11th despite their points total as they're the only team competing in the Amlin. However I'd challenge anyone to come up with a better indicator.

Pos(P12) Team P W L TB LB Pts
1 (1) Ulster Rugby 16 14 2 5 1 62
2 (3) Munster Rugby 16 10 6 4 4 48
3 (6) Leinster Rugby 16 10 6 3 2 45
4 (5) Ospreys 16 10 6 2 2 44
5 (2) Scarlets 16 8 8 3 2 40
6 (4) Glasgow Warriors 16 8 8 2 4 38
7 (7) Benetton Treviso 16 6 10 1 3 28
8 ( Cardiff Blues 16 5 11 1 1 25
9 (10) Connacht Rugby 16 5 11 1 3 24
10 (9) Edinburgh Rugby 16 4 12 1 5 22
11*(11) Newport Gwent Dragons* 16 5 11 3 2 25*
12 (12) Zebre 16 0 16 1 4 5

(1) Are we underachieving as a province?

No. Given our funding is the lowest in the league (though not by as much as sometimes claimed) and our attendances are at the middle/lower end, I'd say we're exactly where the money says we should be. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for more.

(3) How is the coaching team performing?

Well there's no definite indication that they're underperforming; the elevation of players like McCarthy and Loughney to international status would indicate the contrary.

However there are still echoes of the Bradley era in us not being turned on for some games - though you'll find that's the case for all the teams round us.

One good stat, I think, is "How many games are we competitive in?" i.e. we win, draw, or get a losing bonus point.

10/11 Played 28, competitive in 19 (10 wins, 1 draw, 8 lbp)
11/12 Played 28, competitive in 18 (8 wins, 1 draw, 9 lbp)
12/13 (to date) Played 16, competitive in 8 (5 wins, 3 lbp)

The obvious conclusion is that we handled the move from Amlin Cup to HEC very well, but that this year we've been a bit off. I don't think the coaching ticket is necessarily to blame for this, but it does emphasise the need to announce the new coach asap, in the hope of getting a similar bounce to that achieved when Eric was announced as Brads sucessor.


In summary I'd say the facts, open to interpretation as they are, would favour Creedence's opinion i.e. "It's all about the Benjamins" trumps "The Cult of the Coach".

phatguerilla wrote: . Definitely agree with what Rossie and others have said about the new coach and a lack of vision, I want to see a plan being put in place and executed properly.

Sorry Phats, but I'm going to have to file that under 'Won't somebody please do something!'. :evil:

At the risk (gone beyond a risk at this stage) of repeating myself, Connacht don't have a monopoly on 'plans' or 'trying harder' or 'cutting out the silly mistakes'. Every other club will also a plan - one that involves staying ahead of us in the table. And if they have greater resources than us, they'll succeed.

Can some mod ban me from this thread now please?

Creedence wrote:

rossie wrote: i think you are right if talking about 2 seasons ago. i think the recruitment was good last season though. all have made a positive impact imo.
4-5 of the same this season please allied to 1-2 acadamy breakthroughs.

Imo the new coach cant come soon enough. to me there is a bad attitude in that dressing room atm in that they appear to pick and chose which games to turn up for mentally and performance wise. this is a self serving attitude imo(shop window mentality) and has been allowed to develop by management. It goes back to the Bradley era probably as i see that 3 amlin semis were contested while finishing at bottom of league regularly.
it simply has to change.

That's an interesting take on things. The only question I'd have is whether you'd have more bums on seats if we had a better league placing and no 'famous wins'. If we'ed beaten Edinburgh and Cardiff and lost to Biarritz at home I don't think it would have had the same positive impact off the field, but I take your point regarding the on the field effect. That said, I'd agree that next season it would be no harm to end up in the Amlin and focus on the league.

A lot of people are turning up for those big name games for the big names, to see the internationals of Leinster or Munster playing. If they believed that they could go to any game involving a non-Irish team and see some flair and a probable win I think people would be more than happy to show up. Definitely agree with what Rossie and others have said about the new coach and a lack of vision, I want to see a plan being put in place and executed properly.

Tough sh1t Borders, you're getting a reply anyway.

Borders no.2 wrote: How are expectations way out of line? We finished on 37 points last season with a weaker squad. As I have admitted it was during a world cup year so obviously teams were missing players for some games but this year teams have been missing players for games too.

The first team wasn't that much weaker. Gav was playing out of his skin, so was Muldoon. Swifty wasn't injured or playing bit parts and, like JOC, was a year younger. Brett Wilkinson and Loughs were playing far better. So was TOH. Henry was there. Frank Murphy played quite a bit.

What teams have improved in your opinion? I'd love to know?

Cardiff brought a terrible side to Galway in Round 1 and beat us. They have gone way backwards this season but even their 2nd/3rd choice came to Galway and won that is not good enough for a team with any sort of expectations.

Look at the Edinburgh fans message board and tell me they aren't a team in disarray. We made them look good that evening by playing to their strengths and gifting them a couple of tries and we still should have won it. We ballsed up a 2 on 1 overlap in their 22 and missed a late drop goal in the final minutes and lost by 1.

Cardiff should have been beaten out the gate. No excuses, it was an unacceptable performance.

Edinburgh broke their duck the week before they came to visit us on a high, and put out their Scottish internationals against a depleted Connacht side. That was a good win for them, not a bad loss for us.

Its a fair point to say injuries would have a greater effect on us than some teams if everyone was at full strength but other teams have injuries too on top of missing their international players for long periods. The young lad who was on the bench from Leinster Adam Byrne thought it was a joke when Schmidt was ringing him to sit on the bench for the Ulster game.

Exceptions prove the rule.

Why isn't it realistic to achieve 7th? Dragons and Cardiff have gone backwards, Zebre are beyond hopeless, we finished above Treviso the last 2 seasons and Edinburgh have Bradley in charge so if we can't have an expectation within the squad to at least push for 7th what do you believe a reasonable expectation is? Is a good season one where we don't finish last like in Bradley's time?

Just because we've finished above Treviso before doesn't mean anything. Edinburgh have a better squad IMO, but they are flakey in the same way we are. It wouldn't surprise me to finish above either or both of them, but expecting it is another thing. We lost sight of Cardiff the day they won at the Sportsground.

Its not necessarily games where we are expected to win. Each game takes on its own life. We weren't expected to beat Musnter at home but they were there to be beaten if we had the conviction.

No they were there to be beaten if we could breach their defensive line, which we couldn't, because they were rock solid, and because they had an outhalf who ran the show.

I'm not going to single out individual players but there are certain players who have shown they can perform at this level in the past but this season have not come up to the standards expected of them. Its not roaring and shouting as you'd suggest, its finding the reasons why players are not performing to potential and / or making basic errors that they weren't making last season. Is it down to coaching in general or is it an individual issue with the player.

I agree. I think that the difference between us is that I believe that most of them have reached their potential or will reach it and will still make mistakes. Look at Willie Faloon - spent last year at the HEC runners up and yet he misses tackles in matches where he is otherwise playing very well. I don't think there is much more potential in Willie, and I don't for one second doubt his application or professionalism.

Rossie's point is rather proved by an exchange at the press conference after the Leinster game.

When Eric was asked if the game constituted a low point for the season, he said no, we were competitive.

If 4 clean line breaks, 9 handling errors, and 0 points in the first half an hour didn't have Eric tearing his hair out in frustration, it's clear his decision to leave was the correct one, and well done to him for making it.

I think it might be best for the province if Eric steps down after the last HEC game to let the new coach take over (if at all possible, it may not be, if, for example, King gets the gig).

i think you misunderstood me. my point was that players will always be up for the big games. the profile and media interest alone will ensure it and as a result the occasional big win will happen.

the drop off in attitude and application from the players for the other games is for some reason accepted and that has to change. if you take ulster as an example. they take great pride in winning their home games and always have done even when they were struggling. it has never been a place teams travelled to taking a win for granted.

thats pride and tradition based on a healthy respect for you support base.

On the other hand I think it is realistic for 10 of the 11 other clubs in the league to target finishing above Connacht given our resources.

We're not that badly funded; central funding for the Welsh sides is marginally higher than for the Irish provinces, and we get better crowds that the Italians and the Scots. The big 3 Irish provinces exist on a different plane to all the other teams in the competition and I think we sometimes therefore over-egg the Béal Bocht.

While I agree that being in the top half consistently is unrealistic - it would imply that 4 of the top 6 sides were Irish, and if we were that good we'd have a silver fern on the national shirt and do nifty dance routines before internationals - I think we should be looking at 9th being the minimum accepted standard; Dragons, Edinburgh and Aironi/Zebre/Pony Nuovo Franchise are perennial basketcases.

This is hardly aiming high. Effectively this would make us the "best of the worst" teams from each country.

rossie wrote: i think you are right if talking about 2 seasons ago. i think the recruitment was good last season though. all have made a positive impact imo.
4-5 of the same this season please allied to 1-2 acadamy breakthroughs.

Imo the new coach cant come soon enough. to me there is a bad attitude in that dressing room atm in that they appear to pick and chose which games to turn up for mentally and performance wise. this is a self serving attitude imo(shop window mentality) and has been allowed to develop by management. It goes back to the Bradley era probably as i see that 3 amlin semis were contested while finishing at bottom of league regularly.
it simply has to change.

That's an interesting take on things. The only question I'd have is whether you'd have more bums on seats if we had a better league placing and no 'famous wins'. If we'ed beaten Edinburgh and Cardiff and lost to Biarritz at home I don't think it would have had the same positive impact off the field, but I take your point regarding the on the field effect. That said, I'd agree that next season it would be no harm to end up in the Amlin and focus on the league.

columoc wrote: It can be underestimated how hard it is for a young guy who comes to West of Ireland from Ulster, Dublin or South Africa, away from family & friends, living in a semi with a few other players, living a disciplined lifestyle, but knowing it’s relatively temporary. It can be lonely, boring and dispiriting and so it’s very hard to ask them to “fight” for the jersey, for the community etc. They need something more to motivate them. It can be a mixture of things; money, trophies, opportunity to improve, get on a national squad; whatever, but Connacht rugby must capture an attraction for them to ensure they train, practice and play as if their lives depended on it, other than playing for the jersey.

Very good point regarding the players. Bit unfair regarding the suggestion that Connacht is nothing more than 'pride in the jersey' type amateurism though.

the new coaching set up must provide a realistic vision for the team; not just for one year but for the longer term EG: To finish top half every year and regularly compete for a play off or HC place.

I don't see how that is remotely realistic.

On the other hand I think it is realistic for 10 of the 11 other clubs in the league to target finishing above Connacht given our resources.

IMO, while the other provinces have moved on to a Professional Rugby set up (while keeping a local identity esp. Ulster & Munster), Connacht is still in a “Representative” mind frame - having a pride for the jersey, playing for your friends and family as EE called out on the vid last year. This is important when representing your country, county or parish, but pro sport needs a different vision (while retaining some local identity).

It can be underestimated how hard it is for a young guy who comes to West of Ireland from Ulster, Dublin or South Africa, away from family & friends, living in a semi with a few other players, living a disciplined lifestyle, but knowing it’s relatively temporary. It can be lonely, boring and dispiriting and so it’s very hard to ask them to “fight” for the jersey, for the community etc. They need something more to motivate them. It can be a mixture of things; money, trophies, opportunity to improve, get on a national squad; whatever, but Connacht rugby must capture an attraction for them to ensure they train, practice and play as if their lives depended on it, other than playing for the jersey.

To date, I cannot see any sense of purpose for the team, barring within a current season (and even then).The management and the new coaching set up must provide a realistic vision for the team; not just for one year but for the longer term EG: To finish top half every year and regularly compete for a play off or HC place. They must get all stakeholders including the fans to buy-in; and then set shorter term goals for each season which are realistic but a bit stretching, (at least an improvement on the season before). Only when the do this, can they then concentrate on playing squads, training set ups, playing styles etc.

In Leinster this sense of purpose is the legacy of Cheika, not winning the HC imo. After the failures of Williams, Ella & Kidney, Cheika (and the management) created a realistic vision of being champions that everyone could buy into and then built the team around that vision. He failed at Stade because there was no vision; they just wanted to buy success. Imo, Schmidt couldn’t achieve what he has without Cheika’s groundwork. We need something like that.

I take your point Creedence and don't get me wrong I'm all for having/getting better players. The point I was making about skills is that in a lot of professional teams especially in the NH they don't have the same emphasis on it then the SH teams. For example Jackman in his autobiography mentioned that Leinster used to spend hours working on their line-out because Cullen insisted on it and as captain he was given that allowance. They used to spend sometimes only 40 minutes on scrummaging! And then we wondered why Irish teams were bad at scrummaging. Obviously when Schmidt and Feek came in that changed a lot as well as the emphasis on skills. I don't know how long the Connacht boys spend doing skill drills but I'd guess it isn't a huge amount. We were talking about eliminating silly mistakes and by upping the skills training could be a way of doing it.

Getting beaten by munster a and leinster a is very hard to take.

Personally i think the team have gone backwards.

A combination of elwood, mccarthy leaving, eos bolx in the media, hype regarding the home biarritz win and elder statesmen coming to an end i thnk are all contributing.

The team are just not at the races. And theres a few reasons perhaps why.

But getting beaten by second string sides is also going to do nothing for recruitment and retainment programmes.

This season and how we finish in the league could be ever so important for the future.

i think you are right if talking about 2 seasons ago. i think the recruitment was good last season though. all have made a positive impact imo.
4-5 of the same this season please allied to 1-2 acadamy breakthroughs.

Imo the new coach cant come soon enough. to me there is a bad attitude in that dressing room atm in that they appear to pick and chose which games to turn up for mentally and performance wise. this is a self serving attitude imo(shop window mentality) and has been allowed to develop by management. It goes back to the Bradley era probably as i see that 3 amlin semis were contested while finishing at bottom of league regularly.
it simply has to change.