If I was to list the reasons Connacht are at the bottom of the table I'm not sure the props would be in the top 5. Sure you can always improve but not sure how many world class props Connacht can convince or afford to come to Galway and there are other areas that need more attention first.

I dont mean to sound like a broken record, but I was one of the people talking about props, and I was only listing the players I would let go in hypothetical situations.
The lads we have are good, decent players, but none of them are top class. If they were, we wouldnt be in our current league position.

If we suddenly had a huge surplus of cash to spend on new players, a lot of those props would be let go, but again, I'm talking hypothetically

I'm happy with what we have, but to move to the next level, we need to be looking at improving in some of these positions, as well as getting better squad depth

Just reading some of the criticism of the props here now and bloody hell lads I can't believe it. First on Loughney, he has switched back to LH so there is no point criticising him for falling behind White. He is on the other hand behind Wilkinson and Buckley. I genuinely think we have as good a depth at LH as anywhere in Ireland. Criticising Buckley for being light and too small is silly too, when it is a lot harder to scrummage against someone that size. Wilkinson has been our 3rd best player this season IMO behind Marmion and Heenan, so to me there isn't any shame in Buckley and Loughney being behind him.

TH we are blessed with White and Rodney. JP Cooney came on against Toulouse and Saracens and didn't look bad against an international front row in his brief cameos. Perhaps one for the future but being honest I haven't seen enough of him.

We've very rarely took a backwards step in the scrums this year, bar Toulouse at home, and if anything probably won more penalties than ever before from this facet of play. I'd actually rate our scrum higher than our line out and we all know how good that has been this year. Against Toulouse in France the scrum was the platform that set up Marmions try and created space for him to run and not allowing Dusautoir to catch him.

Really think we're spoilt with our reserves at prop lads, I'd be keeping the 5 of them on the books for as long as possible.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Yeah it's an interesting/different way of looking at the squad and seeing where we need to improve.

I'd hold onto Fifita for another year he isn't costing us much and O'Brien and Moloney probably need another season before we can even think of throwing them into the fray.

Good post Connacht Exile. Wouldn't agree with all of your positions however..

For me Dennis Buckley and Andy Browne would definitely be silver standard for me. Browne is a local lad and i thought he played really well on Saturday. He may however be more suited to Second row in my opinion. Buckley is very young still for a prop and despite his lack of massive bulk, he always holds his own in the scrum. He's also very good in the loose.

Calls for White to be shipped off are ludicrous, he's definitely one of the best tight head props playing in Ireland. A good scrummager and is Irish qualified at the end of the year also.

The following might be surplus to requirements

Park
Muldowney
Duffy (maybe one more year, still solid)
Rodney (Still not convinced)
Fafitia
Tonetti

connachtexile wrote: Anyone on here ever hear of Woodward's Gold, Silver,Bronze theory? Essentially he rated his players in these 3 categories Gold, Silver, Bronze and anyone who was Bronze was extendable if someone else better came along. There was more to it than that but rate the Connacht squad in this category and see who precious, who is good and then the rest. Guys like Carty and Leader don't count as they haven't played enough games to make a rating.

The GOLD STANDARD:

<strong>Craig Clarke</strong> - would walk into any team in the Rabo.

<strong>Kieran Marmion</strong> - the next Ireland Scrum-half.

<strong>Robbie Henshaw</strong> - still hasn't being pinned down in a position but one for the future either at 13 or 15.

<strong>Jake Heenan</strong> - when he qualifies for Ireland he will own the 7 shirt. SOB better start practicing his no. 8 drills.

<strong>Nathan White</strong> - compare him to Mike Ross who is the Irish no. 1 TH. White has the same skill level and does more around the park, is also a captain so there's leadership abilities to factor in.

Silver Standard:

<strong>Brett Wilkinson</strong> - a good player and pro but will doesn't have that extra omph to be an international.

<strong>Jason Harris-Wright</strong> - had to leave Leinster for gametime which shows ambition and tenacity and hasn't let us down yet but probably to small for international level rugby.

<strong>Mick Kearney</strong> - getting better all the time looks to be Clarke's new partner in the second row and if he keeps going has a good chance of being gold standard.

<strong>Fionn Carr</strong> - Leinster didn't trust him enough because of defensive frailties but otherwise the complete package if only we could give him the service!

<strong>Danie Poolman</strong> - of two minds if he should be gold or silver, on the verge either way but is he international level?

<strong>Dave McSharry</strong> - would be gold standard if he wasn't so injury prone.

<strong>Eoin Griffin</strong> - again probably to light to be an international level centre but still a talent.

<strong>John Muldoon</strong> - age means he's a silver but what a silver.

<strong>George Naupou</strong> - age again is catching up with him we still see flashes of his best every now and then.

Bronze Standard:

<strong>TOH</strong> - has unfortunately plateaued, a talent but he hasn't kicked on which is disappointing.

<strong>Dan Parks</strong> - a season to many for him. Needs to retire.

<strong>Gavin Duffy</strong> - see above.

<strong>Michael Swift</strong> - still brings bulk to the scrum and a great worker but can be a penalty machine and probably in his last year.

<strong>Ronan Loughney</strong> - another player who has plateaued. White is now first choice and Loughney seems happy to accept that.

<strong>Denis Buckley</strong> - probably to small and light to be a world class prop.

<strong>Andrew Browne</strong> - doesn't seem to be as dominant as last year which is disappointing.

Who have I left out? And how would they be rated?

Woodward might have sounded arrogant on occasion but i liked his attitude, he also said he used to compare his side man for man and decide how many all blacks would make his team, now thats the way to build a team.

Good post Connachtexile but probably a little too enthusiastic (good thing tho) regarding some of our gold standard careful you may turn into a Munster fan type.

I would add a Platinum standard level (POC,Cian Healy, Fofana, Sean O'Brien etc)

Right now we have none imo and i would be dubious any of our gold standard excluding clarke can make the progression maybe 1/2..

Of our silver standard I always thought JHW was good but as alluded he does still lack the size and impact to make the leap to gold, from what iv seen heffernan may overtake him soon if he continues his progression and even make the gold.

I think the difference is if you look at it is a huge number of the leinster squad and a number of the academy fall straight into the gold/silver standard to begin with and some will progress even higher. I dont see many of our listed silver standard making the leap unfortunately but then again the academy is only in its infancy.

In a woodward comparison, how many of our few gold standard would make the team or perhaps even the bench for leinster/ulster/ or even the creaking Munster.
Henshaw= in centre or fullback(up against lualua,BOD,Cave, Olding,Kearney,Jarad payne, Earls, Madigan etc etc)
Heenan= would be up against SOB,Henry, Jordi Murphy, Jennings, Tommy O'Donnell, Dominic Ryan, Doyle, Dougall.
Nathan White= Weakest area in Ireland for Irish born but up against Afoa, Botha, Ross, Moore,
Clarke= Good chance not huge depth in ireland (POC, Donnacha Ryan, O'Callaghan, Toner, Mike McMcarthy, Iain Henderson ,Dan Touhy, Dave Foley)

We cant afford to have bronze level anywhere near the first 15 if we want to compete with the Leinsters of this world.

galway_gas wrote: Thanks connachtexile. Agree with all of your allocations except Buckley. Am always amazed he holds his own in scrum and gives 110% defensively, turnovers etc. Sure he's not going to be a world class prop but he deserves to be in silver category IMO.

Still think he has the potential to be a Gold class hooker, throwing in is an unknown but he has every other characteristic you'd want in a hooker. And at 23 still plenty of time to convert....

McKeon - at the moment silver but potential to be gold standard

A fit Poolman is a devastating player - only 23 so their is still more to come from him

Thanks connachtexile. Agree with all of your allocations except Buckley. Am always amazed he holds his own in scrum and gives 110% defensively, turnovers etc. Sure he's not going to be a world class prop but he deserves to be in silver category IMO.

good post connachtexile and glad to see someone at least offering some objectivity on the matter. You left out Rodney, last season he wouldn't have been anywhere on this with only 7 sub appearances but this year seems to have become second choice TH. Still a while to go but has just over half the appearances of Stephen Archer for instance and appears to be far more solid now than Archer was at this point in his career. Scrum wasn't harmed in any way when he came on at the weekend afaik. Bronze verging on a Silver imo if he can start to handle the more difficult customers on offer.

Henry, with no other options at hooker he became default second choice. I was worried we were getting someone who didn't make the grade at Munster and wasn't any good but has quickly established himself, probably Silver is his limit but turned out to be very good business imo.

Maybe haven't seen enough of Muldowney but as an experienced player from the Premiership to not be able to force himself ahead of a 23 year old or a 36 year old puts him in the Bronze category at the moment.

Matt Healy, silver verging on gold for me, especially considering this is his first pro season. Also was u-20s scrum half ahead of Murray meaning even if he doesn't offer a solution there possibly has something to offer beyond covering Marmion being carded.

Anyone on here ever hear of Woodward's Gold, Silver,Bronze theory? Essentially he rated his players in these 3 categories Gold, Silver, Bronze and anyone who was Bronze was extendable if someone else better came along. There was more to it than that but rate the Connacht squad in this category and see who precious, who is good and then the rest. Guys like Carty and Leader don't count as they haven't played enough games to make a rating.

The GOLD STANDARD:

Craig Clarke - would walk into any team in the Rabo.

Kieran Marmion - the next Ireland Scrum-half.

Robbie Henshaw - still hasn't being pinned down in a position but one for the future either at 13 or 15.

Jake Heenan - when he qualifies for Ireland he will own the 7 shirt. SOB better start practicing his no. 8 drills.

Nathan White - compare him to Mike Ross who is the Irish no. 1 TH. White has the same skill level and does more around the park, is also a captain so there's leadership abilities to factor in.

Silver Standard:

Brett Wilkinson - a good player and pro but will doesn't have that extra omph to be an international.

Jason Harris-Wright - had to leave Leinster for gametime which shows ambition and tenacity and hasn't let us down yet but probably to small for international level rugby.

Mick Kearney - getting better all the time looks to be Clarke's new partner in the second row and if he keeps going has a good chance of being gold standard.

Fionn Carr - Leinster didn't trust him enough because of defensive frailties but otherwise the complete package if only we could give him the service!

Danie Poolman - of two minds if he should be gold or silver, on the verge either way but is he international level?

Dave McSharry - would be gold standard if he wasn't so injury prone.

Eoin Griffin - again probably to light to be an international level centre but still a talent.

John Muldoon - age means he's a silver but what a silver.

George Naupou - age again is catching up with him we still see flashes of his best every now and then.

Bronze Standard:

TOH - has unfortunately plateaued, a talent but he hasn't kicked on which is disappointing.

Dan Parks - a season to many for him. Needs to retire.

Gavin Duffy - see above.

Michael Swift - still brings bulk to the scrum and a great worker but can be a penalty machine and probably in his last year.

Ronan Loughney - another player who has plateaued. White is now first choice and Loughney seems happy to accept that.

Denis Buckley - probably to small and light to be a world class prop.

Andrew Browne - doesn't seem to be as dominant as last year which is disappointing.

Who have I left out? And how would they be rated?

murph13 wrote: Sorry lads but the clear out has to start at the top and Lam must go. Despite being handed an improving squad of lads already here for a while and quality new signings (Clarke, Heenan) and managed to take us backwards faster than anyone would have imagined at the start of the season. He has failed and needs to go.

Aside from that the priority has to be a quality NIQ ten but with falling crowds, financial problems, main sponsor on the way out, no H Cup next year probably and us languishing at the bottom of the table who can we realistically get? With Parks on the way out and one or two other high earners such as Duffy the money may be there but someone of proven quality has got to want to come to the Sportsground and at the moment that's a long shot.

Have you made a single post on this forum without mentioning you want Lam out? You're not Brian Murphy are you?

Lads George is goin nowhere with a year left on his contract.

I think while there have been ups and downs, in general we have lost significant ground on the likes of Dragons, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Zebre etc. this year which we may struggle to get back in the seasons to come if there is still a league. They have strengthened while we have gone back. The two Zebre games say to me we are underachieving as in both games we played them they were absolutely dire yet they are ahead of us in the league.

27 points I make it in the corresponding 12 games last year. Its not always like for like with internationals and so forth but its fairly accurate and when you consider we only picked up 38 in total, on paper at least a lot of the more winnable games are gone. 2 from 12 in the league tells its own story.

In the league I can't think of any performance that you could come away satisfied that we have performed to potential over the 80 minutes. That might suggest that we aren't good enough but then you get the HC performances against Saracens and Toulouse which show the team's potential.

There have been some good spells in games but overall the league has been a massive disappointment and really all I see remaining for the rest of the season is that we get off the bottom or 10th at best.

Its great to see how strong our lineout has become both on our own ball and on the oppositions, likewise the scrum looks to be gradually improving as the weeks go on. At the breakdown though I think we are miles off the pace and that's where we need to improve rapidly if we are to realise our potential.

If I was to say players out I'd say
Gavin Duffy
Mata Fafita
Frank Murphy
George Naoupu
Miah Nikora
Dan Parks
Kyle Tonetti
Michael Swift (He can retire when he likes in my book but I don't know how much more his body can take)

swift4prez wrote: another negitive thread by OP, well done :evil:

few players need to go but not many, not 5 props like cows said. also players with contracts wont leave. i know its silly thread but lets be realistic.

sea_point: EOS is old news, do you know who was in the clan stand with notebook in hand (made that last bit up) on saturday, but Michael Bradley and Eric on his right side.
they went into the clan bar after (first time ive seen eric there since retirement) and was asking supporters what they thought if Connacht went back to 'targeting' games. (little truth in last bit)

but good to see both there

Great stuff. Bear no ill will whatsoever towards Bradley, and obviously have nothing but respect for Eric.

Hmm en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumvirate ??????!!>!>!>??

another negitive thread by OP, well done :evil:

few players need to go but not many, not 5 props like cows said. also players with contracts wont leave. i know its silly thread but lets be realistic.

sea_point: EOS is old news, do you know who was in the clan stand with notebook in hand (made that last bit up) on saturday, but Michael Bradley and Eric on his right side.
they went into the clan bar after (first time ive seen eric there since retirement) and was asking supporters what they thought if Connacht went back to 'targeting' games. (little truth in last bit)

but good to see both there