Sorry exile but you have brought this on yourself. After posting that piece from the rugby guru I'm going to have to ask you to back up the claim that McFadden is the best defensive winger we have? McFadden and Trimble both started out at 13. Both made a decision to become wingers seeking further international opportunities than were available in centre st that time which is ironic considering the current situation. Zebo covers wing and FB. McFadden wing and centre. Jackson OH and centre, Trimble wing and centre. So you would lose nothing with zebo on bench or wing. Oh and Jackson covers the goalkicking.

IMO the two best wingers available to Ireland when everyone is fit are zebo and bowe.the stats go some way towards backing that up.

McFadden is the best cover we have on the bench with Trimble and D. Kearny starting imo. Trimble is not good enough in the centre at international level and doesn't even play much at Rabo level anymore as Ulter have better options coming through there academy. D. Kearny can play fullback if anything happened to R. Kearney. Zebo can play 3 postions, thats great McFadden can play 4 so if you were a coach why would you limit your options? I got no problem with Zebo but my point was McFadden is a way better player than people give him credit for. His tackle rate success rate during the A.I. was the highest for any winger and he know's Schmidt's system inside out. For a coach who is trying to bed in a new system fast that is a big thing. Remember that Gatland played 14/15 Ospreys in one of his first games for Wales.

As for Zebo I have no personal problem with him and I think his name will be on the gamesheet against Italy and I'll be happy to see it there. It's just while McFadden doesn't have the flash of Zebo it doesn't make him less of a player than him.

rossie wrote:

salmson wrote:

connachtexile wrote:

Rather than sticking blindly to preconceptions or talking blithely about a player’s ‘class’ when you can’t put your finger on what it is that he does [or doesn't do] that sets him apart, looking at a player’s production can give you a strong pointer as to why he gets the nod in selection, and why maybe it’s not the wrong decision after all.

Ah get bent Exile, McFadden doesn't play for Munster and that's all the reason you need that Zebo should be ahead of him. Capiche? :evil:

Its a Munster fans site. If you don't like their opinion stay away.

Zebo has scored 4 tries in 4 games since returning from injury.how's that for production?

In fairness the topic was brought over here so salmson is just expressing his opinion on a topic raised here. My opinion would be similar to yours in that Bowe and Zebo are probably the best wing options when fit but Trimble and Kearney took their chance well in the first two games.

I'd have thought Zebo would have been a better option yesterday but in terms of covering positions, really how many games has he played at full back? A couple with Ireland and maybe one or two at Pro 12. Also saying Jackson covers centre is a real push, he'd have been steamrolled at centre against England.

Also while 4 tries in 4 is good form, in all honesty only 1 of them is worth talking about. 1 was late on against a weakened Cardiff side who had long since thrown the towel in and 2 at home to Zebre who even our bunch of sloggers managed to get 4 tries against.

Also while the exuberance of youth is one thing, Zebo really rubs me up the wrong way. His arrogance is similar to what others castigate Hartley and Ashton for and its not something I want associated with Ireland or I'd imagine Munster.

as stated by the panel, i think the reason zebo isnt in the squad is for the way he acts of the pitch. i can see why

connachtexile wrote: Apparently McFadden is the best defensive winger we have and has a pretty good scoring rate to. Adding to the kicking like you said and that he can cover 11 to 14 it makes sense to have him on the bench rather than Zebo. That's not taking anything away from Zebo but I think him being left out is not the scandal some detractors want it to be. Was there problems yesterday? Yes but I think England deserve a lot of credit for forcing us into mistakes. That said I think there is a good chance of Zebo making the 23 against Italy.

Sorry exile but you have brought this on yourself. After posting that piece from the rugby guru I'm going to have to ask you to back up the claim that McFadden is the best defensive winger we have? McFadden and Trimble both started out at 13. Both made a decision to become wingers seeking further international opportunities than were available in centre st that time which is ironic considering the current situation. Zebo covers wing and FB. McFadden wing and centre. Jackson OH and centre, Trimble wing and centre. So you would lose nothing with zebo on bench or wing. Oh and Jackson covers the goalkicking.

IMO the two best wingers available to Ireland when everyone is fit are zebo and bowe.the stats go some way towards backing that up.

Relax, just messing with Exile.

As for other provinces' fan forums, I never play away...

salmson wrote:

connachtexile wrote:

Rather than sticking blindly to preconceptions or talking blithely about a player’s ‘class’ when you can’t put your finger on what it is that he does [or doesn't do] that sets him apart, looking at a player’s production can give you a strong pointer as to why he gets the nod in selection, and why maybe it’s not the wrong decision after all.

Ah get bent Exile, McFadden doesn't play for Munster and that's all the reason you need that Zebo should be ahead of him. Capiche? :evil:

Its a Munster fans site. If you don't like their opinion stay away.

Zebo has scored 4 tries in 4 games since returning from injury.how's that for production?

connachtexile wrote:

Rather than sticking blindly to preconceptions or talking blithely about a player’s ‘class’ when you can’t put your finger on what it is that he does [or doesn't do] that sets him apart, looking at a player’s production can give you a strong pointer as to why he gets the nod in selection, and why maybe it’s not the wrong decision after all.

Ah get bent Exile, McFadden doesn't play for Munster and that's all the reason you need that Zebo should be ahead of him. Capiche? :evil:

Apparently McFadden is the best defensive winger we have and has a pretty good scoring rate to. Adding to the kicking like you said and that he can cover 11 to 14 it makes sense to have him on the bench rather than Zebo. That's not taking anything away from Zebo but I think him being left out is not the scandal some detractors want it to be. Was there problems yesterday? Yes but I think England deserve a lot of credit for forcing us into mistakes. That said I think there is a good chance of Zebo making the 23 against Italy.

Plus McFadden is a solid goal kicker, not as good as Sexton, but close enough with more practice, and as good if not better than Jackson. He is completely underrated as he is not flash, but I'd have him in any team. He can also play 12 or 13 effectively.

With regards to the Zebo vs McFadden debate. The Demented Mole made some good points about McFadden after the Novemner Internationals

Not for the first time this year, Fergus McFadden was Ireland’s most threatening and effective back. It seems to be de rigeur in certain sections to damn him with faint praise and to treat every good test performance as an anomaly, regardless of the evidence that builds up in his favour.

Obviously the standout numbers from his performance were his 132 metres run [best on the pitch by some margin] and three clean breaks, but he was also the only Irish three-quarter not to miss any tackles [going 4/0], and finished tenth on the team’s ruck marks, second amongst the backline, with 36 points [1 decisive, 8 hits, 2 guards, 4 presents]. As an all-round performance, it was pretty clearly the stand-out effort from any of the Irish backs.

McFadden hasn’t quite been operating at Mike Brown levels, but there are similarities between them in that they are gutsy, competitive players who were relatively late bloomers at test level. Neither player really fits the stereotype associated with their respective positions [or their clubs, for that matter], but this isn’t synchronised swimming. There are no points for style.

The Kildare man played five games for Ireland in 2013: against France in the Six Nations, the two games of the North America tour, against the US and Canada, and two of the games of the November series, against Samoa and Australia.The lad averaged 11 carries and better than 65m per game, but more impressive is the average of two clean breaks every test this year, and better than two and a half defenders beaten.

McFadden has 21 test caps [13+8] and has scored 8 tries in those games; 4 of those have come against ‘minnows’ Canada [3] and Russia [1], with the others coming against New Zealand, France, Scotland and Samoa. Those aren’t staggering, Julian Savea-type numbers, but they hold up well in comparison to his contemporaries:

Andrew Trimble [born 1984]; 50 tests [38+12] & 12 test tries [including 2 vs Romania, 1 vs Namibia, 1 vs Russia and 1 vs Canada]
Keith Earls [born 1987]: 39 tests [31+8] & 12 test tries [including 2 vs Russia, 2 vs Fijiª and 1 vs Canada]
Luke Fitzgerald [born 1987]: 27 tests [19+8] & 2 test tries

ª For the sake of comparison, it’s worth considering that it’s neither accurate nor [to use a derided word] ‘fair’ to count Earls’ two tries against Fiji in the 43-6 win in the RDS back in November 2009, and not to count McFadden’s two in the 53-0 win against the same opposition down in Thomond last year. The November 2012 game against Fiji was distinctly not a Wolfhounds game, and neither match was played at the national stadium. The primary reason the more recent game wasn’t classed as a test match was because of a sponsorship clause that requires all Irish home test matches to be played at Lansdowne Road and because the attendance drawn by Fiji wouldn’t cover the cost of staffing the Aviva Stadium. That’s not really a good enough reason, in my opinion. Fiji are a country, they sent over their national team. Not awarding caps for that fixture nor regarding it as a test match is one of those decisions which is absolutely understandable from a commercial and financial point of view, but still smells rotten. With that proviso, McFadden’s record would improve to 22 tests [14+8] with 10 tries, 6 of them against ‘minnows’.

This isn’t to say that McFadden is better or worse than Earls or Trimble or Fitzgerald. It’s just that in terms of production, in terms of things that have actually happened, he compares well with any of them.

Fitzgerald made his test debut as a 19 year old [against the Pacific Islands in November 2006], Trimble a month after his 21st birthday [against Australia in November 2005] and Earls at about the same age as the Ulster winger, his first Irish cap coming in November 2008 against Canada. McFadden didn’t debut until he was 24 [against Italy in the 2011 Six Nations]; that might seem somewhat beside the point, but again, it’s noticeable that there’s a bit of a sniffy attitude about players who don’t break into the test side as nippers.

Rather than sticking blindly to preconceptions or talking blithely about a player’s ‘class’ when you can’t put your finger on what it is that he does [or doesn't do] that sets him apart, looking at a player’s production can give you a strong pointer as to why he gets the nod in selection, and why maybe it’s not the wrong decision after all.

It's a shame Zebo was out injured in the November internationals as it would interesting to compare their numbers.

Random thoughts;

Sexton seemed like he might have been at least mildly concussed, shaking his head and blinking. Would not be too surprised if Murray was the same, both took some late hits.

I had a bad feeling about the game once Farrell hit Murray late, without wrapping, and wasn't carded. For me that was as clear a yellow card tackle as you will see. I don't think any of the refs decisions won the game for England necessarily but he turned a blind eye to a lot of their actions, and they often got away with coming into rucks offside, coming in from the side, standing offside in the ruck, etc.

Joe is having to manage Bod and Darce's farewell tour and having to play within the confines of what they are capable of at this point. I was surprised mcFadden didn't come on for Bod, and he probably should have even before Bod was injured imo.

McFadden has much more experience and caps than zebo. For all the talk about whether he should be in the team, X factor, etc, snore, he only has 6 Ireland caps. Add to that any sub back needs to be capable of covering centre as its_phil says.

I don't know if it was a good or bad thing, what sort of gain it might have made, but I don't remember one offload in the tackle by Ireland. Maybe it was a percentage thing, avoid rash decisions, but it seemed to make Ireland both slower and easier to defend against.

rossie wrote: 5. Joe has beaten the teams our world rankings suggest we should and lost to the teams the rankings suggest we should lose to under Joe. He has a 50% win ratio and may well finish the 6ns on 50%.

Came within one score of beating England at Twickenham, 30 seconds of the All Blacks and beat the reigning Grand Slam champions comprehensively. Australia was poor but it happens and Australia are rejuvenated under McKenzie.

The world rankings is a useless tool for deciding who should win each game. But if we don't beat France it will be awful because they are a dreadful team albeit with wonderful players.

rossie wrote: Not exactly neutral on here either on many subjects but that is the nature of fans forums. Also remember you only get the more passionate/dedicated/militant posting regularly.

Most educated fans are aware that all coaches in all codes tend to lean towards players they know and trust with their tactics/systems. Deccie was vilified for it here and elsewhere, Eddie also did it and suffered similarly. Joe is now doing it. If he persists with it over time and results don't go his way he will suffer the same fate.

The frustration/ annoyance is the apparent double standard. Zebo needs games but McFadden apparently doesn't. TOD is astarter being dropped for mMurphy who is a sub etc. It appears to the more passionate among Munsters fans that all the 50/50s are going Leinster way.

Unless Zebo learns to play center, he shouldn't be in 23. D Kearney and Trimble deserved their shot and I think they are good enough to stay there too. Both made some decent breaks today. Zebo is far too over hyped for my liking, great player but has also only done it against Wales and a solid game against the Boks at this level albeit injury is mainly responsible for that. I actually think Zebo and McFadden will start on the wings against Italy for rotation and Schmidt has said since day one he wants a strong 30 man squad as opposed to a strong 15.

I honestly won't be surprised to not see Murphy in the 23 next week. It won't be anything against him either, just what Schmidt wants to do in developing options. Could be TOD or Ruddock next time.

Some clarification is required -
Keatley was referring to the Munster squad not himself specifically.
2. Sexton kicked poorly for the majority of the game and some of his decisions were mystifying. Joe clearly does not trust Jackson in pressure situations..
3. Lancaster won the tactical battle hands down and our key players were under ferocious pressure throughout. I include our back row, halfbacks and centres in that.
4. We lack pace in the 3/4 line.
5. Joe has beaten the teams our world rankings suggest we should and lost to the teams the rankings suggest we should lose to under Joe. He has a 50% win ratio and may well finish the 6ns on 50%.

Dissapointing to let that one slip away. The thought did cross my mind that Zebo (even though he can be an arrogant twat) coming on rather than McFadden may have offered more especially for a side chasing the match. Jordi Murphy has been in great form for Leinster. O'Donnell isn't far away but that's hardly a match defining call. If he was totally pro-Leinster he'd have brought Murray off who, try saving tackle early on aside failed to live up to his billing. Sexton wasn't right after the hit he got, don't think I'd have been happy to see Paddy Jackson come on but it would probably have been the right decision.

Keatley looking for inclusion is ridiculous. He has been nowhere near the standard required in the big games. No-one else from Munster is good enough at present

I hate the interpro parochial bullshit. Luckily the one eyed fans on all sides have the Heineken Cup to look forward to and leave the rest of us to watch the rugby that Ireland is and always will be judged by.

Ireland made some poor mistakes today but compare the present setup to the jokeshop under Kidney (post world cup mainly) and its been a significant step forward.

We still have a chance of the championship, need to focus on beating Italy hopefully by a decent margin and then its a one off game in Paris. We usually don't play well there and believe in our head we are beaten before a ball is kicked but like Ireland with Kidney I think the French public know its time for change. A good start for Ireland in that game and its a very winnable game.

Not exactly neutral on here either on many subjects but that is the nature of fans forums. Also remember you only get the more passionate/dedicated/militant posting regularly.

Most educated fans are aware that all coaches in all codes tend to lean towards players they know and trust with their tactics/systems. Deccie was vilified for it here and elsewhere, Eddie also did it and suffered similarly. Joe is now doing it. If he persists with it over time and results don't go his way he will suffer the same fate.

The frustration/ annoyance is the apparent double standard. Zebo needs games but McFadden apparently doesn't. TOD is astarter being dropped for mMurphy who is a sub etc. It appears to the more passionate among Munsters fans that all the 50/50s are going Leinster way. Munster rugby themselves implied as much during the week on their website and keatley has mentioned it in an interview.I personally am delighted that another province is doing the heavy lifting for a change. We are all Irish supporters. It has never meant that we agree with everything the coach does.
Joe lost a game that could have been won today and his tactics didn't work. If that continues to happen or won't only be munsterfans.com questioning his decisions and in time his character.