Whiff of Cordite said the following about the November series. (Any underlining is mine)

Cultural Learnings of the November Internationals

Once again, we are utterly perplexed about this Ireland side? Are they the dynamic and creative team that overwhelmed and ran up a record score against (an admittedly tired and disinterested) Argentina? Or are they the lamentable and unsure bunnies who rolled over for the Springbok pack to tickle their collective bellies? The wild swings in performance level continue, and there is little point in trying to reach concrete conclusions about a group who frustrate and delight at the same time, so let’s just try and piece together what parts of the mystery are less enigmatic and which are as puzzling as ever.

What we Learned From the November Series

Yoof, Innit. And not before time. Declan Kidney has taken quite a bit of heat for his reluctance to involve younger players who aren’t from Munster, and Craig Gilroy showed the potential that exists in throwing younger chaps who have yet to nail down a provincial shirt in at the deep end. Against Argentina, Gilroy offered an entirely new threat to that posed by other Irish backs – a geniunely pacy winger who is elusive in contact and runs intelligent lines. Within 10 minutes of his full debut he had a try in his pocket and the Irish rugby fans at his feet – a star in the making. It won’t be long either until his young colleagues Paddy Jackson, Luke Marshall and Iain Henderson are in the full side – the imminent retirement of Radge, succession questions at inside centre and need for a top class dynamic lock will see to that. The sons of Ulster might be arriving at just the right time to give Deccie’s reign a jolt of electricity that it sorely needs

Goodnight Sweetheart. In the two big games Ireland played, the man who used to boss the best in Europe around came on for a 10 minute cameo, and on both occasions, produced plays so lamentable that if they were produced by someone at the other end of his career we would hear nothing but their unsuitability to international rugby. Kicking the ball away when your team needs a try and chipping it into the grateful hands of an opposition player (leading to a try) illustrate that the great man’s international career is at an end. [As a side note, we loved how the RTE commentators studiously overlooked the errors on both occasions.] It demonstrated a streak of selfishness, trying the million dollar play to grab the potential headlines, when he should have been playing the team game. For 10 years, his decision-making was flawless, now it’s going-to-gone. He has nothing more to offer, and it’s sad to see it end like this. In the pack, Donncha O’Stakhanov might have been the first sub (and only sub for 15 minutes) introduced against the Pumas, but his international career is surely over. For all the sterling service he has given, he doesn’t offer anything like he used to, or like the alternatives do, even (especially?) in the absence of Paul O’Superman. Let them move on with some dignity.

Provincial Form Counts, At Last. For the last two years, Chris Henry and Mike McCarthy have been doing the grunt work on the provincial circuit and proving themselves capable against the best teams in Europe, but for no international reward. With the injury jinx hitting Deccie’s usual servants, opportunities arose and were grasped with both hands. Competition for places is crucial in any setup, and the folly of ignoring the players playing best in their position in previous series has been laid bare by the ease with which this pair stepped up to international level.

Murray and Sexton can play together. Conor Murray has endured a difficult twelve months and, outside him, Johnny Sexton has cut a frustrated figure for Ireland. Too often, Murray’s first thought is to run, and his second to pass. Sexton is the sort of general who demands centre stage – ‘give me the ball and I will direct things’. Against Argentina, Murray was excellent. His running was used as a strength, sucking in defenders, but rather than use it to run up blind alleys, he created space, and time, and Sexton used it to glorious effect. The Leinster fly-half has a clear run at the Lions No.10 shirt, and no other player is even remotely in the picture.

Old fashioned wingers still at a premium. The modern game this, how is his defence that, is he big enough the other. It’s reassuring to see that a willowy wing who can change direction quickly is still an invaluable commodity in a world where 110kg monsters occupy every channel. Gilroy’s electric feet and finisher’s pace are terrifically old-fashioned. A couple of other impish speedsters are coming up on the radar in Irish rugby; Luke O’Dea and Andrew Conway. Any rugby fan with a beating heart can only wish to see more of this unique brand of genius.

What we still don’t know

Are Ireland any good? The series finished on a high with a memorable victory and a great performance. But we know all too well the problem with this team, and it precludes us from getting too excited. The pattern of occasional brilliance, usually when painted into a corner surrounded by swathes of mediocrity remains unbroken. No team is properly consistent at test level – even New Zealand blow cold now and then – but it’s hard to think of too many whose performance graph waves so violently as Ireland’s. Maybe Wales. It’s only when we see how Ireland perform in Cardiff in the Six Nations that we can get any more clarity. That’s a couple of months away. Until then, the Irish team remains as enigmatic as ever.

Is Kidney on his last legs? For a decade, Declan Kidney has built success upon success with a relatively simple formula – enable key players with big personalities to play to their strengths, and let the silverware flow. His coaching style is hands-off with an impenetrable exterior masking a completely impenetrable interior. The formula worked well in Munster and with an Ireland team backboned by sons of Munster, but has struggled to adapt well to a Leinster-dominated team more used to something more expansive and highly instructive coaching. If Kidney can adapt his approach to cater for a side where the established players are Leinster and the young guns Ulster-based (where Deccie’s cute hoorism is particularly denigrated), he might be able to move the team on. The signs are both good (Johnny Sexton admitted the November camp was the best he’d been involved in) and bad (who exactly coached what?) at the same time. Deccie essentially needs a Grand Slam or he’s gone – it looks highly unlikely, but it would be foolish to say completely impossible.

Who will be Lions captain? At times this series looked like an attempt by players to play themselves off the plane. Sam Warburton’s credentials are receding by the second and while Chris Robshaw has always looked more midweek captain than test team leader, his wrong-headed decision-making against South Africa gave his critics some easy ammunition. None of the obvious Irish candidates, Paul O’Connell, Brian O’Driscoll, Rory Best or Rob Kearney were fit. Jamie Heaslip advanced his credentials to a moderate degree in the Argentina game, while Johnny Sexton looks increasingly like a real candidate for the role. We’ve always suspected he’s a touch too cranky for the manly chats with the referee, but he is a natural leader and one of few players nailed on for a test start.

Who will win the Six Nations? Open season. Can Ireland stop flattering to deceive? Will Wales bounce back from their run of defeats or have they had their moment? What of England? They look close to being a good team, but it’s always just out of reach. France had the best series of any of the Northern hemisphere, winning all three games with a rejuvenated Michalak at 10 and a lip-smacking backrow of Ouedraogo (finally!), Nyanga and Picamoles. But they must travel to Dublin and London, so it’s a tough campaign for them. And besides, it’s France, so they could be rubbish againin six months time.

What happens back at the provinces? Those with especially short memories might have forgotten that before November, Donnacha Ryan was having an anonymous season on the blindside with Munster. He needs to get back to playing in his best position regularly. Hopefully the arrival of CJ Stander will facilitate this. Up North, Craig Gilroy’s return to regular starter is a pressing requirement – on the evidence of November, the mind boggles that Timble is picked ahead of him, but Trimble is in for his defence in a backline that contains shorties like Paddys Jackson and Wallace and occasional revolving door Jared Payne. If Anscombe succumbs to pressure to advance Luke Marshall’s education with Heineken Cup starts, this would actually facilitate Gilroy’s advancement, as Marshall, as well as being an expansive gainline merchant, is a big (ish) heavy chap.

Is Keith Earls the Odd Man Out? Keith Earls singularly failed to grab his chance at 13, and could find himself struggling for selection in the Six Nations, when BOD will be back. His much-stated desire to play 13 should preclude his selection on the wing, where one of Gilroy and Zebo will have to miss out in any case. He could be in a tight spot … unless BOD continues to do his best to play himself off the team!

For my own two cents I think an Irish manager has a cursed chalice job but there have been times that Kidney has been guilty of picking players solely on reputation rather than form. Blooding young players and results can be hard but there ways around it such as re-entering the Churchill Cup so the Wolfhounds have some proper competition and get to know each other, as well as been a bit more adventurous when playing some of the minnows.

I think a strategy also needs to be put in place so when we get to the next world cup we have at least 2 players competing for positions as well as looking who we are going to replace or who will partner who so we can optimize our talent. As an example in the next season or so I think JJ Hanrahan will make the breakthrough. That will mean our 2 best prospects in the centre are both 12's so it wouldn't surprise me to see Marshall been moved to 13 to play there. Kidney could pick the two as a centre partnership in a A game giving them gametime now so if they make it there not starting from step 1 or use them in training so they get a rhythm.

Anyway hopefully only positive's come from the Autumn internationals and we kick on.

rossie wrote: ive enjoyed our exchanges on this but we will have to call it a day for now.

i disagree that the world cup is the No1 priority tho. Imo the 6 nations will always be. The world cup just gives us a chance to delude ourselves and dream of greater things every 4 years.

Don't know abut deluding ourselves, personally I think the RWC gives us a greater measure of where we really sit in world rugby. The 6N is a great tournament for parochial reasons, and the AI's and Syummer Tours come at awkward times for one team or another.

But also give us a focus to renew and rebuild, there is always new talent coming through, and the RWC gives us an opportunity to measure how well we are doing on that front.

snap!

ive enjoyed our exchanges on this but we will have to call it a day for now.

i disagree that the world cup is the No1 priority tho. Imo the 6 nations will always be. The world cup just gives us a chance to delude ourselves and dream of greater things every 4 years.

We're never going to agree on this but to briefly answer your points...

On the coach being forced to pick to an age profile:

No, I'm saying that the Irish coach should now be working towards the 2015 WC as the number one priority. This clearly isn't/hasn't been the case with Kidney, though the IRFU can shoulder a lot of the blame for contracts that do not run alongside World Cup cycles. The age profile would happen to some extent, asa side effect (the side would have its youngest average age just after a WC, it's oldest during).

On O'Brien versus Ferris:

There's little in age between them (O'Brien is 18 months younger) but O'Brien has had one serious injury whereas Ferris has had multiple injuries, has chronic knee and ankle problems and has repeatedly talked in interviews on how he expects to have to retire early. And the other options at 6 - Henderson and O'Mahoney - are far younger.

On the Wales game in the WC:

As I remember it Wales played a bizarre rush defence where they charged up either side of ROG giving him no pass and forcing him to run. Which he can't. But as the Fetu and Dragons threads prove, no two people see the same game the same way, so I could be wrong.

On blooding players in the 6 nations:

Then when? In meaningless games against the US and Canada? I will grant that Kidney may be working to order as regards the 6 nations and not experimenting.

On Cave:

We'll have to agree to disagree. He looks a trifle slow compared to BOd, Earls, McFadden and co.

i saw after posting that you mentioned cave as not being international material.

i have to disagree. He is the one ulster player imo who has every right to be aggrieved with kidney. He starts all the big games for his province and is playing well.

It remains to be seen if earls will play 13 for munster when everyone is fit and available. imo he will be on wing with casey at 13 and zebo at FB.

salmson wrote:

rossie wrote: im confused.

is it your opinion that the national coach should consistantly ignore the opinions of the provincial coaches and select players for the national team that are either on the bench or out of the provincial squad on HEC days( often behind the irish international)?

No, my opinion is that players who will not be around in 2015 should only be picked where there is no obvious alternative.

Therefore you can make an argument for the selection of D'arcy and BOD in the 6 nations, as the alternatives either share the same age profile (Wallace), are arguably not of international standard McSharry, Cave), or have not nailed down the position (or even a starting place in some cases) at provincial level (Luke Marshall, Downey, McFadden, Earls).

But where obvious alternatives (i.e. starting for their provinces) exist - and by that I mean Jackson over O'Gara, Ryan and McCarthy over POC and DOC, O'Mahony/Henderson/O'Brien over Ferris, Marmion over Redddan - then the longterm view needs to be taken and the older player stood down from the 15, or the 23, and if necessary the squad.

To push the point further: has the continued presence of O'Gara - through no fault of his own - in the squad done anything but undermine Sexton?

We beat Australia in the WC with Sextion (yips and all) at outhalf. All that playing ROG in the walkover over Italy achieved was that we started ROG at outhalf and walked headlong into Wales' defensive trap. This is the kind of relexively conservative thinking that has us Kidney-out crowd scratching our heads. What happened to the ruthless Munster coach who made bold calls like dropping Foley and Stringer and Payne?

So are you saying that the irish coach, whoever he may be in the future, must operate under a different set of principles/rules to the provincial coach and should be restricted on who he should select on age profile?

Imo the presence of jackson on the bench will put more pressure on sexton(if he feels the pressure) than rogs presence does. imo Sexton and rog know their roles in the squad at this stage and are comfortable with it.

some of your other examples either already have happened or are evolving that way so wheres the problem.afaik o brien and ferris are a similar age and are equally injury prone. thats the nature of the position they play and the way they play it.marmion while a good prospect is well down the pecking order to be fair. lets not forget that mcgrath took his u20 spot from him during the world cup.

Your world cup example i partly agree with. i dont know why ROG was selected for italy. i can only assume it was player rotation/rest for the qtr final. I disagree that it had anything to do with the result of that qtr final though. im working from memory here, and its not as good as it used to be, but my recollection is that we lost that game primarily because we didnt compete at the breakdown. My abiding memory of the game is turn over after turnover by warburton while jaime, o brien and ferris lined up in midfield waiting to recieve the ball as opposed to the Aus game when they hit every ruck with agression and secured quick ball. i may be wrong tho.

As i said previously the 6 ntns pays the bills and all national coaches will be expected to deliver results during that championship. As a result blooding players is at a premium and only exceptional talents are generally thrown in during the championship unless injury forces the hand of the coach.

The fitness level of the above mentioned players i thought would have been a given. how silly of me!

rossie wrote: im confused.

is it your opinion that the national coach should consistantly ignore the opinions of the provincial coaches and select players for the national team that are either on the bench or out of the provincial squad on HEC days( often behind the irish international)?

No, my opinion is that players who will not be around in 2015 should only be picked where there is no obvious alternative.

Therefore you can make an argument for the selection of D'arcy and BOD in the 6 nations, as the alternatives either share the same age profile (Wallace), are arguably not of international standard McSharry, Cave), or have not nailed down the position (or even a starting place in some cases) at provincial level (Luke Marshall, Downey, McFadden, Earls).

But where obvious alternatives (i.e. starting for their provinces) exist - and by that I mean Jackson over O'Gara, Ryan and McCarthy over POC and DOC, O'Mahony/Henderson/O'Brien over Ferris, Marmion over Redddan - then the longterm view needs to be taken and the older player stood down from the 15, or the 23, and if necessary the squad.

To push the point further: has the continued presence of O'Gara - through no fault of his own - in the squad done anything but undermine Sexton?

We beat Australia in the WC with Sextion (yips and all) at outhalf. All that playing ROG in the walkover over Italy achieved was that we started ROG at outhalf and walked headlong into Wales' defensive trap. This is the kind of relexively conservative thinking that has us Kidney-out crowd scratching our heads. What happened to the ruthless Munster coach who made bold calls like dropping Foley and Stringer and Payne?

rossie wrote:

N17 wrote: There is a lot of hype out of Saturday's result. Yes it was excellent, but as discussed above when the injured stars return what will happen:

In the backs, Will BOD and Kearney slip back into position? Zebo will disappear from the matchday 22 and unless Earls moves to the bench (to cover all back positions)to allow Gilroy to play wing (as Gilroy cant provide the necessary backs cover. But if Kidney likes Earls in his starting 15, then McFadden retains the Bench and Gilroy is in the wolfhounds, and its back to status Quo.

this is what annoys me most about the anti kidney propaganda.
It's not propaganda, it's fact based opinion based on what we have seen with our own eyes

the most relevent question here is are bod and kearney still the best available 13 and 15 in the country when fit? if yes why wouldnt the national coach pick them. will schmidt pick them ahead of young talented players at leinster? i think the answer is yes.
BO'D - If BO'D is fit, and I mean at leat 95% fit then yes
Kearney - do you mean the Rob Kearney of the SA Lions tour or the one we have seen since? The latter would be a no defensively and in attack we have better back three options....


will ferris be picked at ulster ahead of henderson and ahead of mahoney for ireland? yes and whats wrong with that?.
will best be picked ahead of strauss, probably. whats wrong with that.
Ferris - If OneF is fit, and I mean at least 100% fit then yes. But he simply should not be risked if he is even 95% there are options now.
Best - Strauss is now the man with the Jersey, as long as he maintains his performance with Leinster his should be first name down with Best to the Bench not just parachuted back in for performances past....

will o connell be picked ahead of mccarthy, probably. whats wrong with that?
O'Connell - If Paulie is fit, and I mean at least 100% fit then yes. But he simply should not be risked if he is even 95% there are options now, and certainly not unless he's had a handfull of Munster games under his belt.

will o brien come in at 7 ahead of henry, probably and whats wrong with that?
O'Brien - Like Paulie if he is fit, and I mean at least 100% fit then yes. But he simply should not be risked if he is even 95% there are options now, and certainly not unless he's had a handful of Leinster games under his belt.

the winger situation is very competitive even in the provinces so no manager will ever keep all supporters happy whoever he picks.
Province is irrelevant, sure we'd like to see more Connacht representation but our candidates are still very green

all the players i mentioned will all be frontline players in the hec if fit. they are the best avaulable players so whats wrong with the national coach selecting them.
The problem with Declan picking them is that he will do it if they're only one province back from serious injury irrelevant of the form and the opportunity to develop of other options

what has come out of this series is that they , if selected, will have to deliver consistantly as the jersy is no longer theirs by right no matter who the coach is.
Hey, we agree. Sweet!

im confused.

is it your opinion that the national coach should consistantly ignore the opinions of the provincial coaches and select players for the national team that are either on the bench or out of the provincial squad on HEC days( often behind the irish international)?

For this 6 ntns id bet Rog and reddin. He likes Rogs reliability from the dead ball imo and selects him on the bench for that purpose in case its a tight game. Both Sexton and jackson are still vulnerable to the jips with their goalkicking. Sexton highlighted it saturday when the one blemish on an excellent days work was his kicking return. ditto with jackson against fiji. Rog came off the bench and nailed one from a similar position to where jonnie had missed. It is as he says himself his bread and butter and he almost always delivers in that regard. Reddin, well ii would be harsh on him if he was dropped for a similar style player who is no2 at his province.

rossie wrote: Its not just the national coaches responsibility to blood players either which is something the kidney bashers conveniently forget.

The provincial coaches' reponsibility is to blooding players to build squads for their respective provinces. Centralised contracts (hugely misapplied by Kidney) and player management protocols (ditto: just ask Loughs and Wilko) limit them hugely already. forcing them to drop players on Kidney's say-so is a step too far.

The national coach's responsibility is to do the same for the benefit of the national team. The continuing use of Paddy Wallace (until he needed a scapegoat) is just one example of where Kidney failed to do this.

We don't know if his selections this autume were completely driven by necessity or if he's got his old ruthless mojo back (example: dropping Stringer and Foley between HEC wins).

My point still stands: if you gave me ten quid and told me to take a punt, then on his bahaviour as Irish coach I'd bet on him picking O'Gara and Reddan on the bench ahead of Jackson and Marshall/Marmion.

salmson wrote:

rossie wrote:
are bod and kearney still the best available 13 and 15 in the country when fit?

will ferris be picked at ulster ahead of henderson and ahead of mahoney for ireland? yes and whats wrong with that?.

will best be picked ahead of strauss, probably. whats wrong with that.

will o connell be picked ahead of mccarthy, probably. whats wrong with that?

will o brien come in at 7 ahead of henry, probably and whats wrong with that?

You're missing the point.

Of course BOD is the best 13 in the country. And I'd have no problem with Kearney, Best or O'Brien walking back into the team.

But the chances of any of BOD, O'Connell, or Ferris playing at the 2015 world cup are vanishingly small, and World Cups tend to be won (and even contested at the semifinal stages) by the teams with the most caps. With WC seeding secured and the easier of our 6 nations schedules this spring, it's time to start getting caps into the new generation.

Of course there is a balance to this - you won't discard BOD and D'arcy at the same time, maybe POC could be got to the WC by judicious use as an impact sub - but answer me this: do you honestly think that O'Gara and Reddan (38 and 35 at the next world cup and with multiple replacements available for each) will be left out of the 6 nations squad.

And if not, doesn't that prove N17's point?

The answer to your question is of course no, neither will BOD, Darcy, POC, DOC, Best or Ferris(injuries) imo.
This Autumn series was about world ranking prior to the World Cup draw next week. There are 3 6 ntns, 2 Autumn series and prob 2-3 summer tours between now and the 2015 world cup. Thats a minimum of 27 test matches between now and then for a coach to build a squad.
Its not just the national coaches responsibility to blood players either which is something the kidney bashers conveniently forget.
Will Schmidt drop Darcy and Bod in favour of Mcfadden and O Malley for HEC games for the good of the nation?
Will Anscombe pick L Marshall ahead of Wallace, Henderson ahead of Ferris, P Marshall ahead of Pienaar for the good of the nation? he didnt pick Gilroy ahead of Trimble.
Will Penney pick Keatley or JJ ahead of Rog or Nagle ahead of POC or even DOC?
Will Eric pick Kearney ahead of Swift and would we have seen Marmion ahead of Murphy if he hadnt been injured?
The reality is that the Provincial coaches, just like the national coach, are in the results business and almost exclusively rely on experience to deliver those results. We as provincial fans are happy with this but apply a double standard when it comes to the national team.
Very often it is injuries which provide the understudy the opportunity to shine. Thats the nature of the business. All we have to do is look at Henshaw at fullback and Marmion to see that at connacht but we expect Kidney to operate to different principles even though he selects his team from the provincial Teams.
There are exceptions and the most obvious one is Jackson at Ulster. Humph senior recognised his potential and made the decision? to let Humph junior go and backed the kid. It is the exception though.
I fully expect Jackson to replace Rog in the squad at some point in 2013. This squad will evolve slowly but in time for 2015 because thats the irish way as opposed to it being the kidney way. the provinces evolve in a similar manner. Kidney pointed out on saturday that only 9 of the 2009 squad were involved in this autumn series.
The 6 ntns are our bread and butter and pays the bills. There is a potential triple there and maybe more. France look good atm but we play in 3 mths and the top14 is quite physical so who knows.

rossie wrote:
are bod and kearney still the best available 13 and 15 in the country when fit?

will ferris be picked at ulster ahead of henderson and ahead of mahoney for ireland? yes and whats wrong with that?.

will best be picked ahead of strauss, probably. whats wrong with that.

will o connell be picked ahead of mccarthy, probably. whats wrong with that?

will o brien come in at 7 ahead of henry, probably and whats wrong with that?

You're missing the point.

Of course BOD is the best 13 in the country. And I'd have no problem with Kearney, Best or O'Brien walking back into the team.

But the chances of any of BOD, O'Connell, or Ferris playing at the 2015 world cup are vanishingly small, and World Cups tend to be won (and even contested at the semifinal stages) by the teams with the most caps. With WC seeding secured and the easier of our 6 nations schedules this spring, it's time to start getting caps into the new generation.

Of course there is a balance to this - you won't discard BOD and D'arcy at the same time, maybe POC could be got to the WC by judicious use as an impact sub - but answer me this: do you honestly think that O'Gara and Reddan (38 and 35 at the next world cup and with multiple replacements available for each) will be left out of the 6 nations squad.

And if not, doesn't that prove N17's point?

N17 wrote: There is a lot of hype out of Saturday's result. Yes it was excellent, but as discussed above when the injured stars return what will happen:

In the backs, Will BOD and Kearney slip back into position? Zebo will disappear from the matchday 22 and unless Earls moves to the bench (to cover all back positions)to allow Gilroy to play wing (as Gilroy cant provide the necessary backs cover. But if Kidney likes Earls in his starting 15, then McFadden retains the Bench and Gilroy is in the wolfhounds, and its back to status Quo.

this is what annoys me most about the anti kidney propaganda.

the most relevent question here is are bod and kearney still the best available 13 and 15 in the country when fit? if yes why wouldnt the national coach pick them. will schmidt pick them ahead of young talented players at leinster? i think the answer is yes.

will ferris be picked at ulster ahead of henderson and ahead of mahoney for ireland? yes and whats wrong with that?.
will best be picked ahead of strauss, probably. whats wrong with that.

will o connell be picked ahead of mccarthy, probably. whats wrong with that?

will o brien come in at 7 ahead of henry, probably and whats wrong with that?

the winger situation is very competitive even in the provinces so no manager will ever keep all supporters happy whoever he picks.

all the players i mentioned will all be frontline players in the hec if fit. they are the best avaulable players so whats wrong with the national coach selecting them.
what has come out of this series is that they , if selected, will have to deliver consistantly as the jersy is no longer theirs by right no matter who the coach is.

Creedence wrote:

ummm, wrote: KIDNEY IN!

Kidney out, Kidney in, Kidney transplant!

thats the funniest comment i've seen on this page :silly: :lol: :evil: :woohoo: